Travelling to/from UK
Discussion
In order to maintain some freedom of movement, our little family of seven is now made up of four different nationalities 
Two of our number who like us live and work in France have dual nationality - Brit/Fr and Brit/Irish. They are due to visit the UK shortly for the first time since the end of the transition period. They don't have cartes de sejour to present with their British passports to avoid stamps when leaving and arriving in France.
I was wondering if anyone has any views on which passports to travel on? The ideal would be to leave France using their French/Irish passports (thus not stamped), enter Britain using their British passports (thus no third degree) and at the end of their visit leave UK and re-enter France using their Fr/Irish passports (no stamps/no questions).
I jest of course (or do I?), but not getting their British passports stamped is important.
They'll be travelling in a VW camper, so the die will be cast from the moment the Border Force sets eyes on them.
Two of our number who like us live and work in France have dual nationality - Brit/Fr and Brit/Irish. They are due to visit the UK shortly for the first time since the end of the transition period. They don't have cartes de sejour to present with their British passports to avoid stamps when leaving and arriving in France.
I was wondering if anyone has any views on which passports to travel on? The ideal would be to leave France using their French/Irish passports (thus not stamped), enter Britain using their British passports (thus no third degree) and at the end of their visit leave UK and re-enter France using their Fr/Irish passports (no stamps/no questions).
I jest of course (or do I?), but not getting their British passports stamped is important.
They'll be travelling in a VW camper, so the die will be cast from the moment the Border Force sets eyes on them.
I've certainly left France on the Eurotunnel using my French passport at French border control then swapped to UK passport at the UK passport control on a couple of occasions now (and vice versa) without an issue. Though I was driving a Caterham, so hidden contraband/illegal immigrants was hardly an issue...
I have never known the UK to stamp a UK passport, on entry. They do scan it.
They would, of course stamp a French passport. Brittany Ferries et al provide documents for the Border Agency and that is their primary reference point, simply to understand day-to-day inflows and outflows.
Schengen do not offer reciprocity with the UK, so while we are tied to the 90/180 rule when travelling there, the UK operates a 183/365 rule.
We sold our place at the end of September, drove down to Spain, where we are in the process of obtaining Golden visas. Mid-November, we returned to the UK, where we intend being resident for tax. We showed our French visa - CdS valid until 2031 - as we left Spain and again today as we re-entered.
The border guy here explained that he should have stamped as we are currently only allowed 90-days in other Schengen countries in addition to time that we spend in France. In the end he agreed that it was neither here, nor there, in the big scheme.
Dual passports is the ultimate get-out-of-jail card. The UK only wants to know if you spend more than 183-days there because you then become eligible for tax. However there is plenty of evidence that it is very easy for folk to circumvent even that basic requirement.
They would, of course stamp a French passport. Brittany Ferries et al provide documents for the Border Agency and that is their primary reference point, simply to understand day-to-day inflows and outflows.
Schengen do not offer reciprocity with the UK, so while we are tied to the 90/180 rule when travelling there, the UK operates a 183/365 rule.
We sold our place at the end of September, drove down to Spain, where we are in the process of obtaining Golden visas. Mid-November, we returned to the UK, where we intend being resident for tax. We showed our French visa - CdS valid until 2031 - as we left Spain and again today as we re-entered.
The border guy here explained that he should have stamped as we are currently only allowed 90-days in other Schengen countries in addition to time that we spend in France. In the end he agreed that it was neither here, nor there, in the big scheme.
Dual passports is the ultimate get-out-of-jail card. The UK only wants to know if you spend more than 183-days there because you then become eligible for tax. However there is plenty of evidence that it is very easy for folk to circumvent even that basic requirement.
rdjohn said:
I have never known the UK to stamp a UK passport, on entry. They do scan it.
.
Thanks. My concern is that their UK passports may be stamped by the French (because no cds) which could lead to the impression in the future that they have overstayed in Schengan. `Fines are levied at the border on departure I understand..
My friend who is correctly domiciled in Fr but works short university terms in the UK, received a hefty fine last autumn when departing from Roscoff as he had a UK reg car despite having a cds. Plus reported to regional customs office. It ended costing a packet.
Thanks everyone for your replies, swapping to the more convenient passports between borders seems to be the way to go!
Stuart70 said:
What was the fine for? I have heard of being booted out / not being let back in - fine related to tax or to overstaying?
You can be fined for overstaying when it is detected at port of exit. France usually fines just under 200 euros. This is in addition to being removed and / or given a sanction on your ability to returnThe fine and customs report was all to do with their car. Due to its UK plates, or rather no French plates, it was considered to have been illegally imported by its owner who was resident in France.
Rather than pay the taxes/duty on their return from the UK (they'd bought the car new a year or so beforehand), they sold it to wbac.com and bought a Fr registered one when they came back to France.
It cost them a fair bit as they'd had a good deal on the UK one and they ended up with a similar car that was 3 years older, but as I said to them, at least the French one isn't red.......(every cloud etc)
Somewhere I read that a car should be declared on arrival at the border like other goods, but I can't find that now.
This is a bit off topic, but I raised it to illustrate that French border officials are, at least some of the time, applying the rules as they see fit.
Rather than pay the taxes/duty on their return from the UK (they'd bought the car new a year or so beforehand), they sold it to wbac.com and bought a Fr registered one when they came back to France.
It cost them a fair bit as they'd had a good deal on the UK one and they ended up with a similar car that was 3 years older, but as I said to them, at least the French one isn't red.......(every cloud etc)
Somewhere I read that a car should be declared on arrival at the border like other goods, but I can't find that now.
This is a bit off topic, but I raised it to illustrate that French border officials are, at least some of the time, applying the rules as they see fit.
To be fair, trying to use a UK regd car when domiciled in France is really asking to get fined. They aren’t enforcing the rules as they see fit, they are enforcing the rules as per the rule book. You are required to declare the vehicle as being imported the first time it arrives in France and you then have one month to commence the immatriculation procedure.
Edited by Rushjob on Thursday 5th January 17:38
The rules wrt vehicles are fairly clear - but only if you read the French customs pages of the government site. Most of the UK web sites have not been updated and give the old pre-Brexit stuff - which is downright misleading. Equally the UK government sites are not accurate!!!
The key problem is the Carte de Sejour. If you have one, then you are treated as a French citizen, certainly by the customs and to be fair by all the other French government departments. So if you bring in a foreign registered car, you are importing it as a French citizen and as Rushjob states, it is supposed to be declared at the border and the registration process started. The first part of that process is paying the TVA due to the Douane (20%, or 5.5% for a collectors vehicle)
Without a Carte de Sejour, you can use the vehicle for up to your 90 days! and then must leave. So that does not help much, another of the benefits of 'taking back control'.
To get back on topic, trying to play games with differing passports, particularly when there is the advance passenger notification process in place is likely to run into all sorts of problems. Once the new EU process is running it would be impossible, at the moment any alert immigration officer is likely to pull you and is at liberty to detain you for as long as he likes - hardly seems to be worth the effort!
The key problem is the Carte de Sejour. If you have one, then you are treated as a French citizen, certainly by the customs and to be fair by all the other French government departments. So if you bring in a foreign registered car, you are importing it as a French citizen and as Rushjob states, it is supposed to be declared at the border and the registration process started. The first part of that process is paying the TVA due to the Douane (20%, or 5.5% for a collectors vehicle)
Without a Carte de Sejour, you can use the vehicle for up to your 90 days! and then must leave. So that does not help much, another of the benefits of 'taking back control'.
To get back on topic, trying to play games with differing passports, particularly when there is the advance passenger notification process in place is likely to run into all sorts of problems. Once the new EU process is running it would be impossible, at the moment any alert immigration officer is likely to pull you and is at liberty to detain you for as long as he likes - hardly seems to be worth the effort!
I'm not entirely sure why you would worry about stamps in your UK passport? If you were challenged by the PAF or anyone else all you would do is whip out your French passport?
I've got a UK passport, with Schengen stamps in it (from a PAF officer who wasn't concentrating on what he was doing) and also a carte de sejour and it's never been a problem when asked.....
I've got a UK passport, with Schengen stamps in it (from a PAF officer who wasn't concentrating on what he was doing) and also a carte de sejour and it's never been a problem when asked.....
I don’t see what the fuss is about.
Many say present your CDS and you won’t be stamped but you are.
You and I have no idea what is displayed on the immigration officials computer screen or what level of detail they have.
If you have a CDS the system just works,unless you are trying to blag the system and “you” get what is deserved.
Many say present your CDS and you won’t be stamped but you are.
You and I have no idea what is displayed on the immigration officials computer screen or what level of detail they have.
If you have a CDS the system just works,unless you are trying to blag the system and “you” get what is deserved.
quote=smifffymoto]I don’t see what the fuss is about.
Many say present your CDS and you won’t be stamped but you are.
.
[/quote]
If you mean Fr-UK-Fr, mine doesn't get stamped stamped then. Likewise Fr-Es-Fr over the land border, but I've not been stopped there. If I was I would expect to be stamped in and out of Spain.
My original question wasn't about blagging, the people in my post have EU and UK passports/nationalities, and very definitely do not wish to remain in the UK, etc. My question was about using different passports on the same trip to make entry (of the UK really) hassle free. Maybe I only hear of the high profile cases, but EU citizens legally working in the UK often in very respectable and responsible positions are sometimes being stopped at the UK border for hours despite their "papers" being in order.
The UK border signs don't say "Welcome to the UK" any more. FO doesn't always refer to the Foreign Office.
(There's a wonderful video display at departures in Portsmouth warning holidaymakers to get advice before swimming abroad, that pretty obviously should be pointing to arrivals)
The early replies made me think that swapping passports mid-trip would be best, but I tend to agree with Pete54 that they know who you are and it could be dodgy to add confusion.
Craigyp79- I think craigjm explained that in an earlier post. Maybe, like my friend and his car, it will be different.
Many say present your CDS and you won’t be stamped but you are.
.
[/quote]
If you mean Fr-UK-Fr, mine doesn't get stamped stamped then. Likewise Fr-Es-Fr over the land border, but I've not been stopped there. If I was I would expect to be stamped in and out of Spain.
My original question wasn't about blagging, the people in my post have EU and UK passports/nationalities, and very definitely do not wish to remain in the UK, etc. My question was about using different passports on the same trip to make entry (of the UK really) hassle free. Maybe I only hear of the high profile cases, but EU citizens legally working in the UK often in very respectable and responsible positions are sometimes being stopped at the UK border for hours despite their "papers" being in order.
The UK border signs don't say "Welcome to the UK" any more. FO doesn't always refer to the Foreign Office.
(There's a wonderful video display at departures in Portsmouth warning holidaymakers to get advice before swimming abroad, that pretty obviously should be pointing to arrivals)
The early replies made me think that swapping passports mid-trip would be best, but I tend to agree with Pete54 that they know who you are and it could be dodgy to add confusion.
Craigyp79- I think craigjm explained that in an earlier post. Maybe, like my friend and his car, it will be different.
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