Make a car communicate more
Discussion
Basically i have an m140i, and im quite invested in mods in it. To upgrade to a few cars i like that would be better in terms of what i want (more chassis communication) would cost a lot (minimum 10k on top of this car).
I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
I promise I'm not being 'off' when I write this,
Have you thought about driver training? Unless a driver understands the language and communication of the car then changing the setup won't matter.
If that base isn't covered then it's like trying to understand your mate who speaks Japanese by investing in hearing aids instead of learning japanese
Have you thought about driver training? Unless a driver understands the language and communication of the car then changing the setup won't matter.
If that base isn't covered then it's like trying to understand your mate who speaks Japanese by investing in hearing aids instead of learning japanese
LuckyThirteen said:
I promise I'm not being 'off' when I write this,
Have you thought about driver training? Unless a driver understands the language and communication of the car then changing the setup won't matter.
If that base isn't covered then it's like trying to understand your mate who speaks Japanese by investing in hearing aids instead of learning japanese
I havent no and i know im not an expert driver BUT you honestly cant feel anything through the cars chassis or know when the rear is going to break loose, it would be nice to be able to feel when the rear tyres are at the limit of grip and have the front end feel more positive.Have you thought about driver training? Unless a driver understands the language and communication of the car then changing the setup won't matter.
If that base isn't covered then it's like trying to understand your mate who speaks Japanese by investing in hearing aids instead of learning japanese
As has been said, driver training in a safe environment where you can push yourself and the car to and beyond the limit repeatedly will be worth every penny. Nothing beats experience and seat time. Getting used to how the car feels at and over the limit will be way more valuable than any mods.
Without being a pedant, don't confuse handling with roadholding. Many cars have very high levels of roadholding but poor handling. They hold the road well and can corner quickly but have very little feel or feedback, therefore aren't able to engage the driver and relay what's happening. And/or they have a high level of roadholding to a point, but then snap into over/understeer with little warning (through feel) or adjustability.
Your car was fairly well noted for having both good roadholding as standard on decent tyres and being an engaging drive, so should be a good starting point I'd have thought!
Without being a pedant, don't confuse handling with roadholding. Many cars have very high levels of roadholding but poor handling. They hold the road well and can corner quickly but have very little feel or feedback, therefore aren't able to engage the driver and relay what's happening. And/or they have a high level of roadholding to a point, but then snap into over/understeer with little warning (through feel) or adjustability.
Your car was fairly well noted for having both good roadholding as standard on decent tyres and being an engaging drive, so should be a good starting point I'd have thought!
inline6bmwfan said:
I havent no and i know im not an expert driver BUT you honestly cant feel anything through the cars chassis or know when the rear is going to break loose, it would be nice to be able to feel when the rear tyres are at the limit of grip and have the front end feel more positive.
Everything you've just said does suggest that a greater understanding of what the tyres and chassis are doing would benefit you greatly.In order to feel what's happening you need an understanding of what is going to happen before it does.
That means learning the theory and exploring it in practice.
There are people born with inate car control, who themselves don't understand the why or how until explained.
Learning about tyres, weight transfer, loading, slip angles and tyre reaction would be a great way to get a basis for what you want to achieve.
The cost of a rear diff mount, fitted, would give you a day with a coach who can start you on that journey. And trust me it's a journey.
Any Nimrod can drive a car, not that many can be at one with it.
inline6bmwfan said:
I havent no and i know im not an expert driver BUT you honestly cant feel anything through the cars chassis or know when the rear is going to break loose, it would be nice to be able to feel when the rear tyres are at the limit of grip and have the front end feel more positive.
If this is for road use and not drifting at a drift day. I'd say you have the wrong car.Modern cars on the whole have way too much grip and far too isolating from the road. Any BMW is going to be built for comfort and daily use. Even the M ones.
Get yourself something older, with smaller tyres and less grip and it'll likely feel a lot more alive. If you need to realign your senses, go and have a good test drive in something like a Caterham.
inline6bmwfan said:
Basically i have an m140i, and im quite invested in mods in it. To upgrade to a few cars i like that would be better in terms of what i want (more chassis communication) would cost a lot (minimum 10k on top of this car).
I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
Poly bushing the rear sub frame and LCA bushes will work well but can induce more cabin noise. Just something to bear in mind..I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
inline6bmwfan said:
Basically i have an m140i, and im quite invested in mods in it. To upgrade to a few cars i like that would be better in terms of what i want (more chassis communication) would cost a lot (minimum 10k on top of this car).
I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
If you want a car that you can feel then you should stop sinking money into the M140 and buy a proper driver's car. I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
This is pistonheads : The only motoring website where car modification is seriously frowned upon.
Which is odd. But its always been that way.
I get what your saying and have been there myself. You just want the car to feel a bit better, bit more responsive and know what its going to do and not be like the barge it came out of the factory as.
I dont know a lot about these but would do your camber plates, fit 4 new tyres like pilot sport 4s (unless you already have them), make sure all bushes, drop links, track rod ends basically anything with rubber are as new and then take it to centre gravity who will set the car up to absolute perfection. Its way more than just an alignment.
All cars can be improved. Hence companies like manthey who take an already good porsche and make it even better.
Which is odd. But its always been that way.
I get what your saying and have been there myself. You just want the car to feel a bit better, bit more responsive and know what its going to do and not be like the barge it came out of the factory as.
I dont know a lot about these but would do your camber plates, fit 4 new tyres like pilot sport 4s (unless you already have them), make sure all bushes, drop links, track rod ends basically anything with rubber are as new and then take it to centre gravity who will set the car up to absolute perfection. Its way more than just an alignment.
All cars can be improved. Hence companies like manthey who take an already good porsche and make it even better.
Stiffening various rubber bushes can bring more feedback, but at the expense of any kind of practically.
Another thing to look at is the geometry - adding camber and castor increases grip but reduces feedback imho, especially on the front.
As said though, the best thing to do is sell and buy something set up for it from the start, e.g. a Caterfield, Radical, etc
Another thing to look at is the geometry - adding camber and castor increases grip but reduces feedback imho, especially on the front.
As said though, the best thing to do is sell and buy something set up for it from the start, e.g. a Caterfield, Radical, etc
inline6bmwfan said:
Basically i have an m140i, and im quite invested in mods in it. To upgrade to a few cars i like that would be better in terms of what i want (more chassis communication) would cost a lot (minimum 10k on top of this car).
I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
Sell it and buy a Lotus.I feel like im at a point now where the car handles well and it has more than enough power, my only and only issue i want to address is that i cant really feel what the car is doing.
My plan is to try the following:
Solid mount the rear subframe to the car (All modern m cars are like this).
Fit stiffer LCA/TS bushes on the front axle.
Fit camber plates on the front axle to increase negative camber and turn in.
I have already done suspension and fitted an LSD handling wise.
CraigyMc said:
Sell it and buy a Lotus.
+1Driver training is a separate issue. Get into something like a Lotus and even the least trained driver will notice the feedback. Not that it's not a valuable thing to do, but with or without it, having a more communicative car is still worth pursuing.
Personally I doubt you'll have much success modifying the 140i to become what you want. I just think the communication is something that needs to be designed into the chassis from the start, it's not really something you can modify. Sound yes, power definitely yes on a turbo car, feel not really. My chassis modifications on my old 180SX didn't really make it feel much different/better. I would absolutely sell it and move on to a car known for being more communicative, maybe an Elise or a Boxster. Or even get a cheap MR2 to run alongside it for feel.
The one thing I think can help is alignment, I think it's caster angle that makes the steering weight up with lateral load. My old Silvia I had in Japan was aligned by a small garage in the mountains, the (power) steering weighted up a lot with lateral load, made it easy to sense grip at the front wheels at least. I reckon they put it way out of standard OEM spec, but it worked. Camber does give great turn-in, doesn't do so much for feel.
You could fit smaller wheels and narrower tyres with tall sidewalls (think 116d spec), and de-power the EPAS. Would be a big trade-off, but having more 'twist' in the tyre and no PAS means you can feel the lateral force gradually build up in the front wheels as you build up load. But with a tuned B58 under the bonnet I doubt you'd want skinny tyres.
Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff