Do diesels “make sense” any more?
Discussion
I’m looking for another car. The question I keep butting up against though is does it make sense to get a diesel at all anymore?
With fuel prices being what they are (locally there’s a 30p/litre difference for boggo fuel.)
Fag-packet math suggests that even over 20k miles per annum there’s not THAT much between petrol and diesel, factoring in VED rates and the prices get a lot closer.
Outside of edge use cases like towing, does it make sense to consider a dag dag?
I’m aware no one has a crystal ball and can’t predict whether diesel will ever come back down to 3-5p more expensive than petrol but what are your thoughts?
With fuel prices being what they are (locally there’s a 30p/litre difference for boggo fuel.)
Fag-packet math suggests that even over 20k miles per annum there’s not THAT much between petrol and diesel, factoring in VED rates and the prices get a lot closer.
Outside of edge use cases like towing, does it make sense to consider a dag dag?
I’m aware no one has a crystal ball and can’t predict whether diesel will ever come back down to 3-5p more expensive than petrol but what are your thoughts?
I used to drive a 2.0 diesel hatchback, covering 20k miles a year - could never break 50mpg.
However, I replaced it with a 1.5 petrol hatchback that gets the same mpg as the diesel did.
Performance is the same, and my miles are virtually all motorway.
With the fuel difference, it doesn’t make sense for me to go diesel any more.
Or to go hybrid - I’m getting very similar mpg to the Honda and Toyota hybrids I ran, without the extra purchase cost and complexity.
However, I replaced it with a 1.5 petrol hatchback that gets the same mpg as the diesel did.
Performance is the same, and my miles are virtually all motorway.
With the fuel difference, it doesn’t make sense for me to go diesel any more.
Or to go hybrid - I’m getting very similar mpg to the Honda and Toyota hybrids I ran, without the extra purchase cost and complexity.
Depends on the car and use case. I am looking for a new daily, top choices are a 5 series or 4 series gran coupe and there's several times more diesels for sale than petrols.
If you are still doing motorway work, a big exec diesel covers ground incredibly well and is still frugal so still a viable choice.
If you are still doing motorway work, a big exec diesel covers ground incredibly well and is still frugal so still a viable choice.
Whataguy said:
I used to drive a 2.0 diesel hatchback, covering 20k miles a year - could never break 50mpg.
However, I replaced it with a 1.5 petrol hatchback that gets the same mpg as the diesel did.
Performance is the same, and my miles are virtually all motorway.
With the fuel difference, it doesn’t make sense for me to go diesel any more.
Or to go hybrid - I’m getting very similar mpg to the Honda and Toyota hybrids I ran, without the extra purchase cost and complexity.
I had my eyes opened yesterday regarding the diesel/petrol thing. I've got a Merc GLE400d(3.0 straight 6 twin turbo diesel) that is doing 37mpg overall currently, and I was given a Merc A-Class A180(petrol 1.3 turbo 4 cylinder) yesterday as a loan car and that was doing 46mpg in comparison. However, I replaced it with a 1.5 petrol hatchback that gets the same mpg as the diesel did.
Performance is the same, and my miles are virtually all motorway.
With the fuel difference, it doesn’t make sense for me to go diesel any more.
Or to go hybrid - I’m getting very similar mpg to the Honda and Toyota hybrids I ran, without the extra purchase cost and complexity.
These modern petrol engines are definitely very fuel efficient now I reckon. I've always associated a diesel with better economy than a petrol in the past, but that doesn't always seem to be the case now though.
Whataguy said:
I used to drive a 2.0 diesel hatchback, covering 20k miles a year - could never break 50mpg.
However, I replaced it with a 1.5 petrol hatchback that gets the same mpg as the diesel did.
Performance is the same, and my miles are virtually all motorway.
Out of curiosity, what did you go from and to?However, I replaced it with a 1.5 petrol hatchback that gets the same mpg as the diesel did.
Performance is the same, and my miles are virtually all motorway.
I was about to post something in direct contradiction - my experience of diesels is that generally no matter how hard you drive them their mpg tends to remain fairly consistent. I know my 2.0 Mk3 Focus (150bhp diesel) would return 50mpg (+/- 2mpg) even if I drive enthusiastically. 60mpg was achievable if I were to tickle the accelerator.
Compared to my Focus ST (yes, a very different car), I get low-mid 30's normal driving on my B road commute, but a bit of a play and mpg drops to low 20's very quickly.
It all depends on how much you're able to spend, and whether you need to go into the various city CAZ or ULEZ there are now. You can get an old Peugeot or Vauxhall diesel for example (15-20 yrs old) cheap that will be much better on fuel than its petrol counterpart. But for vehicles under 10 years old, there doesn't seem to be any advantage, except as you mention, if towing.
I bought a diesel Seat Leon this week (a Euro 6 one).
I did the calculations and for my use case, like has been said above there was basically no difference between the fuel cost.
The diesel fuel costs more, diesel versions get better mpg than the petrol versions but because the price gap between petrol and diesel is now circa 20p it makes the real world cost almost identical according to my numbers and mpg assumptions for both cars.
What swung it for me was that I only intend to keep this car for 9-12 months. The WBAC value vs. asking price for the diesel versions was much closer than the petrol versions. Therefore having paid a smaller margin on buying the car I hope to get back more of my money when it comes to getting rid of it in 9-12 months time.
In my own head I treat the asking price minus the WBAC value as the "theoretical margin" that the dealer has put on the car, using the WBAC figure as a rough trade value. I don't need to be told this assumes a lot and can vary from reality wildly but it's all I can go on easily.
For the petrol version the theoretical margin was from anywhere between £1800-£3000 whereas the car I bought the theoretical margin was £800.
On top of all that nonsense, I will be using the car mostly for long motorway journeys, 70-75 miles each way and I just prefer diesels for their lazy torque and low revving nature at motorway speeds. I know that is also controversial but each to their own really.
I did the calculations and for my use case, like has been said above there was basically no difference between the fuel cost.
The diesel fuel costs more, diesel versions get better mpg than the petrol versions but because the price gap between petrol and diesel is now circa 20p it makes the real world cost almost identical according to my numbers and mpg assumptions for both cars.
What swung it for me was that I only intend to keep this car for 9-12 months. The WBAC value vs. asking price for the diesel versions was much closer than the petrol versions. Therefore having paid a smaller margin on buying the car I hope to get back more of my money when it comes to getting rid of it in 9-12 months time.
In my own head I treat the asking price minus the WBAC value as the "theoretical margin" that the dealer has put on the car, using the WBAC figure as a rough trade value. I don't need to be told this assumes a lot and can vary from reality wildly but it's all I can go on easily.
For the petrol version the theoretical margin was from anywhere between £1800-£3000 whereas the car I bought the theoretical margin was £800.
On top of all that nonsense, I will be using the car mostly for long motorway journeys, 70-75 miles each way and I just prefer diesels for their lazy torque and low revving nature at motorway speeds. I know that is also controversial but each to their own really.
cerb4.5lee said:
I had my eyes opened yesterday regarding the diesel/petrol thing. I've got a Merc GLE400d(3.0 straight 6 twin turbo diesel) that is doing 37mpg overall currently, and I was given a Merc A-Class A180(petrol 1.3 turbo 4 cylinder) yesterday as a loan car and that was doing 46mpg in comparison.
These modern petrol engines are definitely very fuel efficient now I reckon. I've always associated a diesel with better economy than a petrol in the past, but that doesn't always seem to be the case now though.
Put that same 1.3T engine in your GLE & you won't be close to your 400d in terms of fuel economy let alone get up & go.These modern petrol engines are definitely very fuel efficient now I reckon. I've always associated a diesel with better economy than a petrol in the past, but that doesn't always seem to be the case now though.
It depends on lots of things IMO. My experience is they typically do something like 33%-50% more MPG when compared like for like with a petrol equivalent. Diesel itself is something like 10-15% more expensive so in raw fuel costs there is a saving to be made but not a huge one, unless you are doing interstellar mileage in a large SUV.
In terms of the driving experience, I think they have a lot going for them. The low down torque suits road driving much more than power at high revs, the increased range means fewer trips to the fuel station. The downsides are obviously the noise, they take ages to warm up and they need regular long journeys for the DPF regeneration.
For me it boils down to the vehicle type. Big heavy SUV? V6/V8 diesel all the way. Small hatch? Petrol all the way. Exec saloon or large family car, I could go either way depending on the projected usage and the individual engines in question. If I'm buying brand new I would be more inclined to go petrol where possible given the way politics is going, on a used car I'd be less worried about the longer term viability of diesel.
In terms of the driving experience, I think they have a lot going for them. The low down torque suits road driving much more than power at high revs, the increased range means fewer trips to the fuel station. The downsides are obviously the noise, they take ages to warm up and they need regular long journeys for the DPF regeneration.
For me it boils down to the vehicle type. Big heavy SUV? V6/V8 diesel all the way. Small hatch? Petrol all the way. Exec saloon or large family car, I could go either way depending on the projected usage and the individual engines in question. If I'm buying brand new I would be more inclined to go petrol where possible given the way politics is going, on a used car I'd be less worried about the longer term viability of diesel.
ZX10R NIN said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I had my eyes opened yesterday regarding the diesel/petrol thing. I've got a Merc GLE400d(3.0 straight 6 twin turbo diesel) that is doing 37mpg overall currently, and I was given a Merc A-Class A180(petrol 1.3 turbo 4 cylinder) yesterday as a loan car and that was doing 46mpg in comparison.
These modern petrol engines are definitely very fuel efficient now I reckon. I've always associated a diesel with better economy than a petrol in the past, but that doesn't always seem to be the case now though.
Put that same 1.3T engine in your GLE & you won't be close to your 400d in terms of fuel economy let alone get up & go.These modern petrol engines are definitely very fuel efficient now I reckon. I've always associated a diesel with better economy than a petrol in the past, but that doesn't always seem to be the case now though.
You can get just over 41/42mpg out of the GLE if you're gentle with it, and I think that is very reasonable for the performance that it offers and the fact that it weighs 2300kg as well. I'd also love to try the 400d engine in an E400d with it being a fair bit lighter than the GLE too.
Sslink said:
I’m looking for another car. The question I keep butting up against though is does it make sense to get a diesel at all anymore?
With fuel prices being what they are (locally there’s a 30p/litre difference for boggo fuel.)
Fag-packet math suggests that even over 20k miles per annum there’s not THAT much between petrol and diesel, factoring in VED rates and the prices get a lot closer.
Outside of edge use cases like towing, does it make sense to consider a dag dag?
I’m aware no one has a crystal ball and can’t predict whether diesel will ever come back down to 3-5p more expensive than petrol but what are your thoughts?
The simple answer to your question is that you buy the drivetrain that suits YOUR individual needs, on my case I wanted something with around 200 bhp that would do a real world 50+mpg on a run having regularly driven all the options I picked a 210 Mondeo which is giving a real world 56mpg tank to tank, with around an extra 100-120 miles per tank on BP Ultimate.With fuel prices being what they are (locally there’s a 30p/litre difference for boggo fuel.)
Fag-packet math suggests that even over 20k miles per annum there’s not THAT much between petrol and diesel, factoring in VED rates and the prices get a lot closer.
Outside of edge use cases like towing, does it make sense to consider a dag dag?
I’m aware no one has a crystal ball and can’t predict whether diesel will ever come back down to 3-5p more expensive than petrol but what are your thoughts?
The difference in fuel skews things ever so slightly but there'll always be something, lets say the difference was 5p what would you choose then?
When I was looking these were where my shortlist:
Passat R Line BiTDI 240 :
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210110...
Mondeo Vignale 210:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205145...
Insignia GSI 210:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210010...
Now compare them to their petrol brethren & there's a clear difference.
2.0T Elite Nav Insignia:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210271...
2.0T Passat GT:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210190...
The plug in hybrid figures are very skewed but on something like a Passat GTE Advance I see a real world 41mpg average:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211121...
2.0T Mondeo:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210050...
As you can see there's still a difference so it all depends on what type of car you're looking for? How much go you want? & finally how much you want to spend?
In my case having had the Mondeo for over pretty much faultless miles 70k I'm going to go back to a 3.0d, four cylinder turbos (be they petrol or diesel don't work for me so it'll be an E400d (I'm gutted you can only get this drivetrain in AWD) or maybe the OH's Alpina D3 if she changes jobs.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Tuesday 15th November 18:14
I do around 20-25k miles a year. After a succession of diesels, I got a Mazda 3 Skyactiv X.
It’s not far off in real world mpg what I got from the diesels but the increase in diesel v petrol means that in fuel cost tells they are the same but one of the drivers for me was the changes in city centre emissions/ ULEZ zones which are being rolled out.
It’s not far off in real world mpg what I got from the diesels but the increase in diesel v petrol means that in fuel cost tells they are the same but one of the drivers for me was the changes in city centre emissions/ ULEZ zones which are being rolled out.
Edited by Alfa Pete on Tuesday 15th November 18:31
TurboHatchback said:
In terms of the driving experience, I think they have a lot going for them. The low down torque suits road driving much more than power at high revs, the increased range means fewer trips to the fuel station.
This. Even if the running costs were the same, I'd rather have a diesel over the equivalent petrol for most daily driving cars. As an example, I'd much rather drive a 320d over a 320i, having had both as company cars. JackJarvis said:
TurboHatchback said:
In terms of the driving experience, I think they have a lot going for them. The low down torque suits road driving much more than power at high revs, the increased range means fewer trips to the fuel station.
This. Even if the running costs were the same, I'd rather have a diesel over the equivalent petrol for most daily driving cars. As an example, I'd much rather drive a 320d over a 320i, having had both as company cars. JackJarvis said:
TurboHatchback said:
In terms of the driving experience, I think they have a lot going for them. The low down torque suits road driving much more than power at high revs, the increased range means fewer trips to the fuel station.
This. Even if the running costs were the same, I'd rather have a diesel over the equivalent petrol for most daily driving cars. As an example, I'd much rather drive a 320d over a 320i, having had both as company cars. JackJarvis said:
This. Even if the running costs were the same, I'd rather have a diesel over the equivalent petrol for most daily driving cars. As an example, I'd much rather drive a 320d over a 320i, having had both as company cars.
Running costs wouldn’t be the same though the 2l petrol will be thirsty Tax would be £200 plus. 320d would give you 50+mpg and something crazy like £30 tax. 320d would be my choice all day. Carguy44 said:
Get a turbo petrol though and it's a different situation.
No not really both the 320d & 320i are both turbo cars & 320d's torque still makes it's presence felt over the 320i, it's just a little less busy, With the 320i's torque peaking slightly higher up the rev range your on the throttle a little longer.
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