Discussion
I watched the US Grand Prix and despite all of hyperbole about it being a great race was left disappointed.
Thinking about it I have concluded it is the DRS that is the issue. It removes any chance of a skilled driver in a slower car being able to defend a hard earned place through tactical car placement. All the faster car has to do is wait for the straight and drive past. The slower car has zero chance to respond,
In the US race Max clearly had a faster car and drove up to the back of Lewis quite easily and then proceeded to simply use DRS to drive past. Wouldn’t it have been far better to watch him trying to pass through skill and Lewis trying to out think him?
The same issue with Max and Charles and pretty much all the way down the field. If DRS was removed would we really lose overtaking?
Thinking about it I have concluded it is the DRS that is the issue. It removes any chance of a skilled driver in a slower car being able to defend a hard earned place through tactical car placement. All the faster car has to do is wait for the straight and drive past. The slower car has zero chance to respond,
In the US race Max clearly had a faster car and drove up to the back of Lewis quite easily and then proceeded to simply use DRS to drive past. Wouldn’t it have been far better to watch him trying to pass through skill and Lewis trying to out think him?
The same issue with Max and Charles and pretty much all the way down the field. If DRS was removed would we really lose overtaking?
realjv said:
Would we loose overtaking? Yes, some.
Should we do it? I think we should try. If not then the power of the DRS should be reigned back a bit. DRS should get you up to the car in front, not passed it.
I wonder if you should get DRS *until* you're within a second of the car in front. Should we do it? I think we should try. If not then the power of the DRS should be reigned back a bit. DRS should get you up to the car in front, not passed it.
Use it to remove gaps, not encourage overtakes
You're not alone. I see the removal of DRS as F1's obvious next step after the successful implementation of the 2022 technical regulations. I think the cars and tyres in 2023 are ready for it. I would love them to announce it for next season. I think it'd significantly improve the quality of racing add more jeopardy to strategy decisions.
However, F1 and F1 fans have gotten used to seeing a lot of overtakes, relatively speaking. I have seen number of overtakes used as a metric when comparing how 'good' races and seasons were. People are going to need to break their addiction to 'cheap' overtakes.
Even if they did away with DRS they'd probably replace it with a 'push to pass' system, which would be better but which would probably also lead to people waiting until a straight and breezing past.
However, F1 and F1 fans have gotten used to seeing a lot of overtakes, relatively speaking. I have seen number of overtakes used as a metric when comparing how 'good' races and seasons were. People are going to need to break their addiction to 'cheap' overtakes.
Even if they did away with DRS they'd probably replace it with a 'push to pass' system, which would be better but which would probably also lead to people waiting until a straight and breezing past.
Altrezia said:
realjv said:
Would we loose overtaking? Yes, some.
Should we do it? I think we should try. If not then the power of the DRS should be reigned back a bit. DRS should get you up to the car in front, not passed it.
I wonder if you should get DRS *until* you're within a second of the car in front. Should we do it? I think we should try. If not then the power of the DRS should be reigned back a bit. DRS should get you up to the car in front, not passed it.
Use it to remove gaps, not encourage overtakes
Alonso's 'overtake' on Stroll was sans DRS, so there's arguably enough of an advantage from slipstreaming now to make DRS redundant. As long as the guy in front doesn't jink left at the exact same time...
I've said the same thing before in similar DRS threads - DRS removes the "art" of overtaking, but it's going to be impossible for F1 to go back to only having 5 overtakes per race if cars can't follow.
Such a big deal was made when DRS was introduced about how we went from xx overtakes per season up to xxxxx per season. There's an entire generation of F1 fans and drivers who haven't known anything other than easy DRS passes.
There's hardly any "edge of the seat" overtaking these days, as soon as you're within 1 second, it's an easy fly-by halfway down the main straight.
Me personally, I'd rather have 5 great overtakes instead of 100 easy DRS passes but DRS is currently necessary to avoid 50 laps of cars not being able to get anywhere near each other.
Such a big deal was made when DRS was introduced about how we went from xx overtakes per season up to xxxxx per season. There's an entire generation of F1 fans and drivers who haven't known anything other than easy DRS passes.
There's hardly any "edge of the seat" overtaking these days, as soon as you're within 1 second, it's an easy fly-by halfway down the main straight.
Me personally, I'd rather have 5 great overtakes instead of 100 easy DRS passes but DRS is currently necessary to avoid 50 laps of cars not being able to get anywhere near each other.
The issue is that DRS has made overtaking a lazy thing and a fact of life rather than it being a skill.
There is still overtaking without it, which proves it can be done, but an overtake should be an event, not a matter of course.
it is not really used elsewhere, so only in the apparently elite world of F1 does it happen.
If you want to see overtaking on another level I suggest you watch a WEC race or something like the 24H of Nurburgring, when you see cars lapping traffic trying to defend and overtake, that makes even old style F1 overtakes look pretty average.
I was lucky enough to see proper overtakes though and they are a thing of skill, beauty and judgement. Prost made an overtake look simple, easy and effortless, Berger made them look hard work, Stewart made them look "why doesn't everyone do that", Lauda made them look annoying as he wore people down!!
The last great real overtakers I saw were Alonso and Button, and Lewis to be fair.
There is still overtaking without it, which proves it can be done, but an overtake should be an event, not a matter of course.
it is not really used elsewhere, so only in the apparently elite world of F1 does it happen.
If you want to see overtaking on another level I suggest you watch a WEC race or something like the 24H of Nurburgring, when you see cars lapping traffic trying to defend and overtake, that makes even old style F1 overtakes look pretty average.
I was lucky enough to see proper overtakes though and they are a thing of skill, beauty and judgement. Prost made an overtake look simple, easy and effortless, Berger made them look hard work, Stewart made them look "why doesn't everyone do that", Lauda made them look annoying as he wore people down!!
The last great real overtakers I saw were Alonso and Button, and Lewis to be fair.
skeeterm5 said:
In the US race Max clearly had a faster car and drove up to the back of Lewis quite easily and then proceeded to simply use DRS to drive past. Wouldn’t it have been far better to watch him trying to pass through skill and Lewis trying to out think him?
The same issue with Max and Charles and pretty much all the way down the field. If DRS was removed would we really lose overtaking?
Merc has a drag coefficient of an open parachute and Max has had more or less the best car now that RBR dialed out the understeer and improved straightline speed. The same issue with Max and Charles and pretty much all the way down the field. If DRS was removed would we really lose overtaking?
Lewis was sliding more at the end of the race despite being on the harder tyres so Lewis was a sitting duck regardless and Max would've got by anyway.
Go back to Zandvoort. Even with DRS it was processional and the only person to make hay and pass like a hot knife through butter was Max getting the best out of the RBR.
Saying that, I agree that exciting overtakes have become less memorable in the DRS era and different factors affect how powerful DRS e.g. in Canada Carlos Sainz was barely making a dent when he was battling for the lead.
i think the problem is on some tracks drs still doesn't help overtaking, (spain, monaco) others we see cars past half way down the straight and even tucking back into the racing line before the corner.
ideally it was removed or if not, shortened/extended, on a track by track basis, depending on the previous years data, although i think that would be impossible to work out when you have cars like the red bulls, usually having such an extreme straight line advantage.
maybe it should close up again when the cars become level or front wheel to back wheel?
ideally it was removed or if not, shortened/extended, on a track by track basis, depending on the previous years data, although i think that would be impossible to work out when you have cars like the red bulls, usually having such an extreme straight line advantage.
maybe it should close up again when the cars become level or front wheel to back wheel?
What Red Bull have shown this year is that if you combine the effects of the new regulations - which are allowing cars to follow closer in the turns - and some slippery aero then you end up with a formidable weapon of a race car. I expect others will have been taking notes.
On tracks where Red Bull and Ferrari have been nip and tuck in terms of lap time Red Bull have almost always had the upper hand. If the Red Bull is ahead then the Ferrari struggles to pass because it can't take advantage of any superior corner speed enough to get around and DRS only mitigates its straightline deficit. If the Red Bull is behind it can now hang on just enough to use its top speed advantage to get ahead. Previously all the dirty air from the leading Ferrari would have kept the Red Bull at arms length enough that its speed advantage on the straight was neutralised.
I think, to a certain degree, that it actually doesn't matter that much.
Last weekend Max's pass on Lewis was a blast past as soon as he got within 1 second and could open it up.
But.. Lewis immedialty has DRS once he was behind him.. but as Lewis was in the slower car, he couldn't use it to take back advantage.
Knowing this, I don't think the situation there would be any different (Simply put Lewis is in the slower car).
Maybe it doesn't happen as quickly? Maybe Lewis has more chance to fight back? I don't know..
Last weekend Max's pass on Lewis was a blast past as soon as he got within 1 second and could open it up.
But.. Lewis immedialty has DRS once he was behind him.. but as Lewis was in the slower car, he couldn't use it to take back advantage.
Knowing this, I don't think the situation there would be any different (Simply put Lewis is in the slower car).
Maybe it doesn't happen as quickly? Maybe Lewis has more chance to fight back? I don't know..
DRS only works if the cars line up in order of how good they are, a Noah's Ark of two-by-two. Then you always have the slightly slower car just behind the faster one. But how often has a complete grid of two of each team next to each other happened, let alone running two by two in the race? I've always hated DRS, not for the ease of the overtake, but the lack of defence a car in front can provide.
How many potential scenarios could there have been where a slower car is in front holding off a fast car and spring a surprise podium or even a win? For example, if by happenstance and strategy/safety car luck, Vettel in the Aston Martin finds himself leading with a few laps remaining, all a charging Verstappen has to do is close right up then do him on the straight.
How many potential scenarios could there have been where a slower car is in front holding off a fast car and spring a surprise podium or even a win? For example, if by happenstance and strategy/safety car luck, Vettel in the Aston Martin finds himself leading with a few laps remaining, all a charging Verstappen has to do is close right up then do him on the straight.
How about this as an idea:
You get DRS when you are OUTSIDE of 1 second, but you lose it when you get WITHIN 1 second.
Easy to catch people up, hard fought battles to over take them..
Also can help you make up for a bad pit stop or spin or something and stop having 30-40 second gaps across the field later in the races?
C'mon... thats genuis!
You get DRS when you are OUTSIDE of 1 second, but you lose it when you get WITHIN 1 second.
Easy to catch people up, hard fought battles to over take them..
Also can help you make up for a bad pit stop or spin or something and stop having 30-40 second gaps across the field later in the races?
C'mon... thats genuis!
What The Deuces said:
I think the difficulty with removing DRS now is that the tyres wouldn't support 3-4 laps of following closely and trying to set up a non-drs pass.
Would be quite good to see a race without it to see what the reasons for keeping it are.
A few more worn out tyres wouldn't do the racing any harm.Would be quite good to see a race without it to see what the reasons for keeping it are.
I wish they'd get rid of DRS. Piss easy overtakes are boring.
Or give everyone DRS and let them use it in dry conditions whenever they want, or within defined zones at any time as per qualy. The lap times are still improved, the top speeds are still increased and the braking zones are still extended by the higher top speeds DRS allows, but the cars are technically unchanged and nobody is specifically advantaged by it.
HustleRussell said:
Or give everyone DRS and let them use it in dry conditions whenever they want, or within defined zones at any time as per qualy. The lap times are still improved, the top speeds are still increased and the braking zones are still extended by the higher top speeds DRS allows, but the cars are technically unchanged and nobody is specifically advantaged by it.
Cue Latifi flying off track as he tries to take Eau Rouge flat with DRS wide open or similar.Zarco said:
HustleRussell said:
Or give everyone DRS and let them use it in dry conditions whenever they want, or within defined zones at any time as per qualy. The lap times are still improved, the top speeds are still increased and the braking zones are still extended by the higher top speeds DRS allows, but the cars are technically unchanged and nobody is specifically advantaged by it.
Cue Latifi flying off track as he tries to take Eau Rouge flat with DRS wide open or similar.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff