Big Engineering Manufacturers - WTF is wrong with them?
Discussion
Rant ON
Mentioning no names, major global player in electrical equipment (amongst others).
How is it possible in the 21st century for their operation to be so s
t?
This is a major worldwide player.
I know more about their products than they do (apparently).
How are they still in business?
They're not the only ones with poor performance, but they are the WORST by several light years.
Taking dumbing down to new lows.
FFS.
Rant OFF
Mentioning no names, major global player in electrical equipment (amongst others).
How is it possible in the 21st century for their operation to be so s
t?- Their available catalogue information is wrong.
- Their available drawing information is wrong/incomplete.
- Their available 3D model information is wrong/incomplete.
- Their product manager(s) are incapable of using a telephone.
- Their support staff cannot articulate messages.
- Their support staff are not allowed to know/have no knowledge of said managers email address.
This is a major worldwide player.
I know more about their products than they do (apparently).
How are they still in business?
They're not the only ones with poor performance, but they are the WORST by several light years.
Taking dumbing down to new lows.
FFS.
Rant OFF
A common factor in lots of industries these days, the quality of service and staff skills have deteriorated. I have resorted to bringing more manufacturing in-house so we have full control over our own parts.
This is either an opportunity for a good entrepreneur to step in and do something different, or watch a foregign company take over and do it better.
This is either an opportunity for a good entrepreneur to step in and do something different, or watch a foregign company take over and do it better.
Their available catalogue information is wrong.
This is surprisingly common and IME, its due to them not getting much business via the actual catalogue. When a company sells everything it does online, then that information has to be good and up to date. If people can’t trust the web site, the company’s portal to the world, they go elsewhere. Many large companies are like this. They have a web site as its “the modern thing to do” and “their competitors have one”. This is because many UK companies have been around aeons, and new-fangled web tech is beyond them and “it was so much simpler in their day” An ex-senior boss of mine said in 2000 – “the internet is a passing fad…”
e.g., Steel suppliers in the UK have dismal web sites, far more information is usually available on steel suppliers based in India. The problem is – I don’t trust it!
Their available drawing information is wrong/incomplete.
As draughtsmanship has been replaced by CAD operators, who only have to drive the CAD system and not create actual quality drawings (the two are distinctly different skills), this situation will continue to get worse for many organisations, including where I work now.
Their available 3D model information is wrong/incomplete.
See above
Their product manager(s) are incapable of using a telephone.
When people email an organisation, they sit in an inbox queue of “will my email get dealt with today?” by the product manager. That person then scans down the new emails list picking low hanging fruit to deal with and the ones that appear too difficult get put off until tomorrow, then the next tomorrow, and so on, until they disappear off the radar entirely. I ran a design team, and they originally did this, only picking jobs from the in tray that they wanted to do, not doing the jobs they should have done. Result = 5 trays with Monday, Tuesday etc… on them for when the enquiry arrived, and Monday’s tray had to be cleared before Tuesday's were started on. Sorted.
An email can be dealt with in the product mangers time and agenda, not yours.
If the customer rings up, they could be on for ages, wandering around the houses, when writing out an email in a clear and concise manner is a far more arduous task.
Their support staff cannot articulate messages.
If it is deemed too difficult for whatever reasons.
Their support staff are not allowed to know/have no knowledge of said managers email address.
No - the support staff have been told not to pass on the said managers email address. This is because the said managers know their support team are not that good (probably NMW or similar), and any possibility there is of an email getting sent to a more competent adult within the organisation has to be nullified, otherwise said mangers inbox would be enormous and the above problem of selective inbox use continues.
A lot of people in large organisations can get away with not caring about the company and its success. They care about their own success, their paycheck, how much fun they have, and how much work they can get away with not doing. It’s a poor attitude, but its down to the layer above to make sure that it isn’t like that.
If they hear that the MD is on £400K+ and mega bonuses yet doesn’t appear to actually know what they are doing, the lower orders got 1%/pay freeze, people stop caring, and the good ones go.
Edited by bucksmanuk on Wednesday 7th September 08:55
It reminds me of the recent Curious Droid YT video on Bell Labs.
The writing was on the wall when the scientists and engineers had to start signing out equipment and materials instead of just taking what they needed.
Companies now living on past glories largely paying drones to half heartedly tap away on a keyboard.
The writing was on the wall when the scientists and engineers had to start signing out equipment and materials instead of just taking what they needed.
Companies now living on past glories largely paying drones to half heartedly tap away on a keyboard.
From the replies, a rather depressing outlook (esp from bucksmanuk). This is why I hate big corp.
It used to be the likes of Tyco (take your company over) who'd hoover up businesses & render them barren.
But none of the old UK names are independent.
I specifically look to source from the UK now & spend time talking to prospective manufacturers/suppliers to get an idea of their operation, the equipment & methods in place & their attitude/knowledge.
We do have some outstanding build partners/manufacturers/suppliers, but they are only as good as the support they get in specific areas.
It used to be the likes of Tyco (take your company over) who'd hoover up businesses & render them barren.
But none of the old UK names are independent.
BGARK said:
A common factor in lots of industries these days, the quality of service and staff skills have deteriorated. I have resorted to bringing more manufacturing in-house so we have full control over our own parts.
This is what I've been doing. I specifically look to source from the UK now & spend time talking to prospective manufacturers/suppliers to get an idea of their operation, the equipment & methods in place & their attitude/knowledge.
We do have some outstanding build partners/manufacturers/suppliers, but they are only as good as the support they get in specific areas.
Too many staff in too many large businesses (especially MNCs) spend more time 'presenting' them/their department to other bits of their own business than anything else. I see some and it's just one constant merry-go-round of jollies, conferences and backslaps, with not a single interface with anything remotely resembling a customer.
ChocolateFrog said:
It reminds me of the recent Curious Droid YT video on Bell Labs.
The writing was on the wall when the scientists and engineers had to start signing out equipment and materials instead of just taking what they needed.
Companies now living on past glories largely paying drones to half heartedly tap away on a keyboard.
One place I worked at, when the ink in your biro ran out you had to fill in a stores req to get a replacement.The writing was on the wall when the scientists and engineers had to start signing out equipment and materials instead of just taking what they needed.
Companies now living on past glories largely paying drones to half heartedly tap away on a keyboard.
Smiler. said:
Rant ON
Mentioning no names, major global player in electrical equipment (amongst others).
How is it possible in the 21st century for their operation to be so st?
The first 3 are either the absence of a change control process or there is one but lazy staff don't follow it, as a result the product changes and everything else is out of date.Mentioning no names, major global player in electrical equipment (amongst others).
How is it possible in the 21st century for their operation to be so s
t?- Their available catalogue information is wrong.
- Their available drawing information is wrong/incomplete.
- Their available 3D model information is wrong/incomplete.
- Their product manager(s) are incapable of using a telephone.
- Their support staff cannot articulate messages.
- Their support staff are not allowed to know/have no knowledge of said managers email address.
In my own business I had a ccp which if followed then everything stayed in step (including user guides, online help and user training etc). I would insist that the minute the product was changed the whole suite of supporting data needed to change immediately. But lazy staff would at first put it off til tomorrow, then next week, then forget about it. Used to drive me mad and that was as the business owner not a user or customer trying to use such documents.
I empathise with you OP.
MikeStroud said:
The first 3 are either the absence of a change control process or there is one but lazy staff don't follow it, as a result the product changes and everything else is out of date.
In my own business I had a ccp which if followed then everything stayed in step (including user guides, online help and user training etc). I would insist that the minute the product was changed the whole suite of supporting data needed to change immediately. But lazy staff would at first put it off til tomorrow, then next week, then forget about it. Used to drive me mad and that was as the business owner not a user or customer trying to use such documents.
I empathise with you OP.
Ultimately you can achieve the first 3 with decent automation of the processes. Update the CAD and the data flows through to the PIM system and updates the catalogue. There's no reason you have to rely on a person manually updating information. In my own business I had a ccp which if followed then everything stayed in step (including user guides, online help and user training etc). I would insist that the minute the product was changed the whole suite of supporting data needed to change immediately. But lazy staff would at first put it off til tomorrow, then next week, then forget about it. Used to drive me mad and that was as the business owner not a user or customer trying to use such documents.
I empathise with you OP.
The problem large companies often have though is they're made up of acquisitions that all do things differently. Getting them onto the same standard process tend to be harder than automating the solution.
We’ve been absorbed into a global behemoth. Three years of utter cluster fkery. Vast swathes of good quality staff made redundant and jobs passed to a central call centre. The people in the call center try bloody hard to do the right thing and are decent, however the processes implemented by said behemoth make everything ten times longer. It’s a company that really doesn’t know what it is anymore.
We have,
Thoroughly cheesed off customer base.
A chairman that cashed in $1m of shares just as Covid was coming out of China and prior the arse falling out of the share price. Three months later 600 staff made redundant off the bat, various others going down to a four day week. (we have a facility in China manufacturing various machines). Real Jimmy Hill chin that he didn’t know what was coming.
Down trodden staff.
10 months to get replacement uniforms.
10 months for replacement PPE.
A subscription model that is going to fall flat on its arse.
There’s some positives,
Machines are world class, well the American and French stuff is. The stuff from Turkey and Mexico is very hit and miss.
A very very varied selection of locations with said machines.
The grey matter stays active if you can deal with the absolute pita long winded processes.
A very high technical knowledge base if you know where to look and who to ask.
kery. Vast swathes of good quality staff made redundant and jobs passed to a central call centre. The people in the call center try bloody hard to do the right thing and are decent, however the processes implemented by said behemoth make everything ten times longer. It’s a company that really doesn’t know what it is anymore. We have,
Thoroughly cheesed off customer base.
A chairman that cashed in $1m of shares just as Covid was coming out of China and prior the arse falling out of the share price. Three months later 600 staff made redundant off the bat, various others going down to a four day week. (we have a facility in China manufacturing various machines). Real Jimmy Hill chin that he didn’t know what was coming.
Down trodden staff.
10 months to get replacement uniforms.
10 months for replacement PPE.
A subscription model that is going to fall flat on its arse.
There’s some positives,
Machines are world class, well the American and French stuff is. The stuff from Turkey and Mexico is very hit and miss.
A very very varied selection of locations with said machines.
The grey matter stays active if you can deal with the absolute pita long winded processes.
A very high technical knowledge base if you know where to look and who to ask.
I’ve noticed in the last ten years or so
Knowledgeable people have been let go.
Usually it’s either outsourced or In my example it’s
Left to the freight forwarders to fill in the gaps.
I’ve had major manufacturers who simply won’t pack the goods.
Or can’t classify or do the docs for dangerous goods
Many don’t even know their stuff is hazardous
Or want a tail lift because they don’t have a flt driver anymore.
Or major exporters that pack tens of thousands of pounds worth of equipment in crap cases or pallets, that shift on the lorry and then it’s our problem to sort out because it left there ok.
Many don’t even know how high to pack the freight to.
For example a shipment to somewhere like Toronto and it’s too metres high and it needs a freighter.
They baulk at the cost until we say can you split it over two pallets and reduce the height?
Then we can get it on a passenger a/c and it’ll be half the price?
Then we get it in the neck from the other end when the shipments not readily available. I think it’s awful
It’s so bad recently that it’s refreshing to pick up a new customer who knows what he’s doing.
We have rotational apprentices and our own full time training instructor to try and fill the skills gap.
But it’s very clear that many manufacturers don’t have a clue
Knowledgeable people have been let go.
Usually it’s either outsourced or In my example it’s
Left to the freight forwarders to fill in the gaps.
I’ve had major manufacturers who simply won’t pack the goods.
Or can’t classify or do the docs for dangerous goods
Many don’t even know their stuff is hazardous
Or want a tail lift because they don’t have a flt driver anymore.
Or major exporters that pack tens of thousands of pounds worth of equipment in crap cases or pallets, that shift on the lorry and then it’s our problem to sort out because it left there ok.
Many don’t even know how high to pack the freight to.
For example a shipment to somewhere like Toronto and it’s too metres high and it needs a freighter.
They baulk at the cost until we say can you split it over two pallets and reduce the height?
Then we can get it on a passenger a/c and it’ll be half the price?
Then we get it in the neck from the other end when the shipments not readily available. I think it’s awful
It’s so bad recently that it’s refreshing to pick up a new customer who knows what he’s doing.
We have rotational apprentices and our own full time training instructor to try and fill the skills gap.
But it’s very clear that many manufacturers don’t have a clue
Frik said:
MikeStroud said:
The first 3 are either the absence of a change control process or there is one but lazy staff don't follow it, as a result the product changes and everything else is out of date.
In my own business I had a ccp which if followed then everything stayed in step (including user guides, online help and user training etc). I would insist that the minute the product was changed the whole suite of supporting data needed to change immediately. But lazy staff would at first put it off til tomorrow, then next week, then forget about it. Used to drive me mad and that was as the business owner not a user or customer trying to use such documents.
I empathise with you OP.
Ultimately you can achieve the first 3 with decent automation of the processes. Update the CAD and the data flows through to the PIM system and updates the catalogue. There's no reason you have to rely on a person manually updating information. In my own business I had a ccp which if followed then everything stayed in step (including user guides, online help and user training etc). I would insist that the minute the product was changed the whole suite of supporting data needed to change immediately. But lazy staff would at first put it off til tomorrow, then next week, then forget about it. Used to drive me mad and that was as the business owner not a user or customer trying to use such documents.
I empathise with you OP.
The problem large companies often have though is they're made up of acquisitions that all do things differently. Getting them onto the same standard process tend to be harder than automating the solution.
The OEMs often have separate listings & links on their websites, sometimes they have the above 3rd party elements built in to their websites.
For at least a decade, many websites belonging to these major players have been a road accident. One has recently improved considerably, but you still have to know what it is you're looking for & also make sure the downloaded pdf catalogue is the latest version (I save that info in the filename now).
dirky dirk said:
It’s so bad recently that it’s refreshing to pick up a new customer who knows what he’s doing.
Exactly so, a rare occurrence these days.Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff