Scams to be aware of if buying a light aircraft?
Discussion
My son is looking to buy a small plane to help him complete his 100 hours before moving onto to his commercial pilots training.
His instructor has one for sale that fits the bill My son has flown it, and has done quite a lot of investigation into value and the documentation required. We also have another couple of knowledgeable people looking over it.
He trusts his instructor and I have no reason not to, but I wondered whether there was anything we should be looking out for in terms of scams.or things we don’t know we don’t know. I understand the LAA will have it registered so i was going to try to speak to them tomorrow.
We’re hoping all bases covered, but my knowledge is limited and hoped some of the more experienced people here could set my mind at rest.
Many thanks
Nick
His instructor has one for sale that fits the bill My son has flown it, and has done quite a lot of investigation into value and the documentation required. We also have another couple of knowledgeable people looking over it.
He trusts his instructor and I have no reason not to, but I wondered whether there was anything we should be looking out for in terms of scams.or things we don’t know we don’t know. I understand the LAA will have it registered so i was going to try to speak to them tomorrow.
We’re hoping all bases covered, but my knowledge is limited and hoped some of the more experienced people here could set my mind at rest.
Many thanks
Nick
If you can, find out who the LAA inspector(s) are who have been doing the annual permit renewals and talk to them about the aircraft (depending on how long you're planning on keeping it, you'll need to get in touch with one anyway for the next renewal). If it has been sitting around and not flown for any length of time without the engine being inhibited arrange for a borescope inspection, and in any case you may want to get an oil sample analysis.
I’d get a pre-purchase inspection carried out by an independent organisation who has experience on the type.
I’ve performed pre-purchase inspections on several helicopters that have been advertised as being ‘the best available in Europe’ only to find issues that have in some cases halted the sale and in others has resulted in a not insignificant reduction in purchase price.
I’m not familiar with the world of GA for fixed wing flying but somebody out there should be able to help you out.
I’ve performed pre-purchase inspections on several helicopters that have been advertised as being ‘the best available in Europe’ only to find issues that have in some cases halted the sale and in others has resulted in a not insignificant reduction in purchase price.
I’m not familiar with the world of GA for fixed wing flying but somebody out there should be able to help you out.
Deerfoot said:
I’d get a pre-purchase inspection carried out by an independent organisation who has experience on the type.
I’ve performed pre-purchase inspections on several helicopters that have been advertised as being ‘the best available in Europe’ only to find issues that have in some cases halted the sale and in others has resulted in a not insignificant reduction in purchase price.
I’m not familiar with the world of GA for fixed wing flying but somebody out there should be able to help you out.
How do you get into this line of work?I’ve performed pre-purchase inspections on several helicopters that have been advertised as being ‘the best available in Europe’ only to find issues that have in some cases halted the sale and in others has resulted in a not insignificant reduction in purchase price.
I’m not familiar with the world of GA for fixed wing flying but somebody out there should be able to help you out.
When’s it due its next major overhaul.
I realise its not in the same league as a Robinson r22 helicopter but there is a reason they become worth a lot less as they approach the 4000 hr point. It’s nearly at the price point where the overhaul costs as much as buying a slightly used example..
My wife an I know someone who has an r22 and we we discussing this with his wife..
Here’s a rough idea if they find nothing wrong.. https://lighthelicopterdepot.com/r22-oh
I do realise we’re talking apples and pears here but if it’s due major work shortly, he could be buying something he needs to spend a lot of to keep going or something that’s worth a lot less if he gets it closer to major work hours.. it might just be cheaper to go away to South Africa/America and pummel the hours out over there for 3 weeks….
I looked at doing my commercial helicopter licence and nearly all of them involved time in South Africa or America to keep the costs down.
Just a thought
Many thanks for your replies and I hope we are weighing apples and pears.
For a bit more clarity, the plane is a tri wheel Europa XS. It’s around 15 years old and has been stored for around 10 years before his instructor took ownership. The engine is a Mogas powered Subaru engine with 100hp and is basically a car engine. Its done 20 hours.
My son has checked the log books on the engine and airframe and they appear to be correct with the dates. the engine oil and coolant has been replaced, the alternator checked with a local company. The carbs have been cleaned out and the spark plugs replaced.
It has recently been inspected by an independent LAA official who has given it a certificate of air worthiness that my son has seen. It’s just waiting on the radio certification and the fuel sender unit to come back and will be ready to sell. It also has the aircraft equivalent of the V5C. My son flew it yesterday for an hour and all was well. There are a couple of small areas of damage like a very small knock where it came out of the hanger, but it has been repaired with araldite (as he was told my an aircraft repairer). The only slight issue was an imbalanced propellor but he’s going to sand it down before he buys it.
The whole airframe is fibreglass and the wings are filled with foam so no risk of rusting. It was hanger stored and will be when the weather worsens.
We’re going to have it checked by a friend who’s an engineer with over 40 years experience working on car engines. He’s had a look at some images of the engine and has said there’s nothing he doesn’t recognise. We also have a family friend who restores vintage aircraft and sailplanes and he is going to have a look at the body to ensure it’s good to go. He’s also going to help with the paperwork so we know we have everything we need.
So, I’m fairly comfortable that his due diligence to date is sound, unless somebody thinks other wise. As I said, I’m mainly trying to close out the risk of a scam, that I’m not aware of, but again I have no reason to distrust the seller.
Once again many thanks for taking the time to reply
Nick
For a bit more clarity, the plane is a tri wheel Europa XS. It’s around 15 years old and has been stored for around 10 years before his instructor took ownership. The engine is a Mogas powered Subaru engine with 100hp and is basically a car engine. Its done 20 hours.
My son has checked the log books on the engine and airframe and they appear to be correct with the dates. the engine oil and coolant has been replaced, the alternator checked with a local company. The carbs have been cleaned out and the spark plugs replaced.
It has recently been inspected by an independent LAA official who has given it a certificate of air worthiness that my son has seen. It’s just waiting on the radio certification and the fuel sender unit to come back and will be ready to sell. It also has the aircraft equivalent of the V5C. My son flew it yesterday for an hour and all was well. There are a couple of small areas of damage like a very small knock where it came out of the hanger, but it has been repaired with araldite (as he was told my an aircraft repairer). The only slight issue was an imbalanced propellor but he’s going to sand it down before he buys it.
The whole airframe is fibreglass and the wings are filled with foam so no risk of rusting. It was hanger stored and will be when the weather worsens.
We’re going to have it checked by a friend who’s an engineer with over 40 years experience working on car engines. He’s had a look at some images of the engine and has said there’s nothing he doesn’t recognise. We also have a family friend who restores vintage aircraft and sailplanes and he is going to have a look at the body to ensure it’s good to go. He’s also going to help with the paperwork so we know we have everything we need.
So, I’m fairly comfortable that his due diligence to date is sound, unless somebody thinks other wise. As I said, I’m mainly trying to close out the risk of a scam, that I’m not aware of, but again I have no reason to distrust the seller.
Once again many thanks for taking the time to reply
Nick
MisterNick said:
Many thanks for your replies and I hope we are weighing apples and pears.
For a bit more clarity, the plane is a tri wheel Europa XS. It’s around 15 years old and has been stored for around 10 years before his instructor took ownership. The engine is a Mogas powered Subaru engine with 100hp and is basically a car engine. Its done 20 hours.
My son has checked the log books on the engine and airframe and they appear to be correct with the dates. the engine oil and coolant has been replaced, the alternator checked with a local company. The carbs have been cleaned out and the spark plugs replaced.
It has recently been inspected by an independent LAA official who has given it a certificate of air worthiness that my son has seen. It’s just waiting on the radio certification and the fuel sender unit to come back and will be ready to sell. It also has the aircraft equivalent of the V5C. My son flew it yesterday for an hour and all was well. There are a couple of small areas of damage like a very small knock where it came out of the hanger, but it has been repaired with araldite (as he was told my an aircraft repairer). The only slight issue was an imbalanced propellor but he’s going to sand it down before he buys it.
The whole airframe is fibreglass and the wings are filled with foam so no risk of rusting. It was hanger stored and will be when the weather worsens.
We’re going to have it checked by a friend who’s an engineer with over 40 years experience working on car engines. He’s had a look at some images of the engine and has said there’s nothing he doesn’t recognise. We also have a family friend who restores vintage aircraft and sailplanes and he is going to have a look at the body to ensure it’s good to go. He’s also going to help with the paperwork so we know we have everything we need.
So, I’m fairly comfortable that his due diligence to date is sound, unless somebody thinks other wise. As I said, I’m mainly trying to close out the risk of a scam, that I’m not aware of, but again I have no reason to distrust the seller.
Once again many thanks for taking the time to reply
Nick
you sure it's not a 100bhp rotax 912 engine? if so these are about as good as it gets in lightweight aviation (imho).For a bit more clarity, the plane is a tri wheel Europa XS. It’s around 15 years old and has been stored for around 10 years before his instructor took ownership. The engine is a Mogas powered Subaru engine with 100hp and is basically a car engine. Its done 20 hours.
My son has checked the log books on the engine and airframe and they appear to be correct with the dates. the engine oil and coolant has been replaced, the alternator checked with a local company. The carbs have been cleaned out and the spark plugs replaced.
It has recently been inspected by an independent LAA official who has given it a certificate of air worthiness that my son has seen. It’s just waiting on the radio certification and the fuel sender unit to come back and will be ready to sell. It also has the aircraft equivalent of the V5C. My son flew it yesterday for an hour and all was well. There are a couple of small areas of damage like a very small knock where it came out of the hanger, but it has been repaired with araldite (as he was told my an aircraft repairer). The only slight issue was an imbalanced propellor but he’s going to sand it down before he buys it.
The whole airframe is fibreglass and the wings are filled with foam so no risk of rusting. It was hanger stored and will be when the weather worsens.
We’re going to have it checked by a friend who’s an engineer with over 40 years experience working on car engines. He’s had a look at some images of the engine and has said there’s nothing he doesn’t recognise. We also have a family friend who restores vintage aircraft and sailplanes and he is going to have a look at the body to ensure it’s good to go. He’s also going to help with the paperwork so we know we have everything we need.
So, I’m fairly comfortable that his due diligence to date is sound, unless somebody thinks other wise. As I said, I’m mainly trying to close out the risk of a scam, that I’m not aware of, but again I have no reason to distrust the seller.
Once again many thanks for taking the time to reply
Nick
look it up on g-info.
also google the registraition to see if there are any AAIB reports on it (i.e it has been crashed)
swampy442 said:
How do you get into this line of work?
I started out in the military then completed my CAA engineering licences. Left the military after 23 years and now work for a customer service facility for civil helicopters.We carry out maintenance for private owners and aircraft on AOC (able to carry fare paying passengers) on a variety of types.
As for pre-purchase inspections the main areas are trawling through the maintenance records and component log cards to ensure that the aircraft has been correctly maintained. We also check for outstanding bulletins and can prepare a forecast of costs based on component life remaining against projected flying rates. A physical aircraft inspection is also performed.
The costs for running a turbine helicopter can be eye-watering for people not used to them. Add unscheduled faults in to the mix and it's not a pastime that's cheap..
jjones said:
you sure it's not a 100bhp rotax 912 engine? if so these are about as good as it gets in lightweight aviation (imho).
look it up on g-info.
also google the registraition to see if there are any AAIB reports on it (i.e it has been crashed)
Looks like it'll be a Rotax after a quick look on G-info. I've not had much to do with Rotax (I know my way round Lycomings) but as the above poster has said they're pretty much the default choice in this category.look it up on g-info.
also google the registraition to see if there are any AAIB reports on it (i.e it has been crashed)
Can't understand why the prop hasn't been balanced, it's not particularly difficult to do.
Thanks all again,
I didn't know about G-INFO but the checks seem to show what ws expected in terms of the ownership. With regards to the engine it is a "NSI Propulsion systems EA-81/100". The pilot says it's a Subaru unit (there's a Subaru logo on the tail) and my son has done his own investigation into it and stablished that Subaru did indeed make plane engines before using them in cars (Hope that concurs here).
The owner is a commercial 321 pilot and is teaching at a local school so the prop is more of a timing thing. They've become friends through flying and he has offered after support for any issues my son may have in the future so we feel confident in the purchase.
Hopefully I'm closing down all the points raised, but thanks for your advice
Nick
I didn't know about G-INFO but the checks seem to show what ws expected in terms of the ownership. With regards to the engine it is a "NSI Propulsion systems EA-81/100". The pilot says it's a Subaru unit (there's a Subaru logo on the tail) and my son has done his own investigation into it and stablished that Subaru did indeed make plane engines before using them in cars (Hope that concurs here).
The owner is a commercial 321 pilot and is teaching at a local school so the prop is more of a timing thing. They've become friends through flying and he has offered after support for any issues my son may have in the future so we feel confident in the purchase.
Hopefully I'm closing down all the points raised, but thanks for your advice
Nick
There are several alarm bells ringing for me here.
A call to the Light Aircraft Association for a chat with their Chief Technical Officer may also prove fruitful.
A couple of links well worth a read:
LAA Europa Type Acceptance Data Sheet
The Europa Club - Building
- The NSI Subaru conversion has no engine manufacturer support.
- The NSI conversions use a reduction drive between the engine and prop. The 'propeller imbalance' could well be a resonance, misalignment or other issue in the drive train. I would be looking for a dynamic vibration test to test the engine, reduction drive, propeller and spinner as a whole.
- Does the aircraft have the NSI inflight adjustable propeller fitted? From what I can see spares are unobtainable.
- Composite airframes need people who really know what they are looking at to establish current and approaching issues. A steel tube and fabric and 'spamcan' maintainers won't necessarily have the knowledge .
A call to the Light Aircraft Association for a chat with their Chief Technical Officer may also prove fruitful.
A couple of links well worth a read:
LAA Europa Type Acceptance Data Sheet
The Europa Club - Building
GliderRider said:
There are several alarm bells ringing for me here.
I know nothing about light aircraft op, but on this point alone surely resale will be problematic? Your son could struggle to find someone willing to buy it off him when he has done with it, even if all else is as described by the vendor - The NSI Subaru conversion has no engine manufacturer support.
I thought the done thing was to hire a plane for getting your hours up? Less risky, surely. You know how much that is going to cost.
As above, unless your son wants to lose a chunk of cash, I'm not sure why you would buy the aircraft to complete hour building. What problem is he trying to solve by having his own aircraft? Is it an availability issue for rental planes? Has he looked in to joining a group as an alternative idea?
Many thanks to everybody who hs replied on this thread.
Obviously there are some negative vibes coming over here, and whilst I m the type that tries to find solutions to problems, I am also not the type who posts on forums asking knowledgable people for advise and then ignoring it because it is not what I want to hear.
I think we need to go through the figures again as the first plan was predicated on the selling price being close to the buying price. The flight hours to date seemed a positive factor in this.
We won't give up yet, but I think we will be more cautious going forward and investigate the issues that have been raised.
I think the only outstanding question raised was from 48k about what is driving the purchase. In answer, the dominant driver is completing the hours in as short a time as reasonable at the least cost. (Gets back to the selling price being close to the buying price) Other drivers are about having some fun doing it and there is the possibility that I may do my PPL.
I appreciate there are some that are against the plan, but I think we will extend our investigations, but with a lot more caution and with a number of questions that need ticking before proceeding
Once again I appreciate the help
Nick
Obviously there are some negative vibes coming over here, and whilst I m the type that tries to find solutions to problems, I am also not the type who posts on forums asking knowledgable people for advise and then ignoring it because it is not what I want to hear.
I think we need to go through the figures again as the first plan was predicated on the selling price being close to the buying price. The flight hours to date seemed a positive factor in this.
We won't give up yet, but I think we will be more cautious going forward and investigate the issues that have been raised.
I think the only outstanding question raised was from 48k about what is driving the purchase. In answer, the dominant driver is completing the hours in as short a time as reasonable at the least cost. (Gets back to the selling price being close to the buying price) Other drivers are about having some fun doing it and there is the possibility that I may do my PPL.
I appreciate there are some that are against the plan, but I think we will extend our investigations, but with a lot more caution and with a number of questions that need ticking before proceeding
Once again I appreciate the help
Nick
48k said:
As above, unless your son wants to lose a chunk of cash, I'm not sure why you would buy the aircraft to complete hour building. What problem is he trying to solve by having his own aircraft? Is it an availability issue for rental planes? Has he looked in to joining a group as an alternative idea?
Just a bit more info in response, and a possible sense check. The hire cost of a Cessna 152 is £178 per hour plus a fuel surcharge. so £18-£20k for the 100 hours. He has looked at syndicates, but they don't seem interested in hour builders, they want enthusiasts. The cost of the plane is £30k.The running costs need to be added.
Presume you are aware of the owners' club?
https://www.theeuropaclub.org/
Presumably they would have data for running costs etc, might be worth getting in touch
https://www.theeuropaclub.org/
Presumably they would have data for running costs etc, might be worth getting in touch
If it's just hours building, has he looked at the States?
It's decades since I was there, but in just under a month, I managed to bang in 80 hours. It's an endurance but immense fun. All signed off and validated with an FAA PPL for pretty much free.
It was back in the nineties that I did that but when I costed up that number, the flights over, car hire, digs and all the flying etc, still ended up about a grand cheaper than the UK. Plus pretty much guaranteed good flying wx ( bar the afternoon cells which did frequent).
Incredible experience. Toured pretty much the entire state including lunch at Key West as part of my 300nm x country.
Things will have changed (cost etc) but maybe worth a look?
It's decades since I was there, but in just under a month, I managed to bang in 80 hours. It's an endurance but immense fun. All signed off and validated with an FAA PPL for pretty much free.
It was back in the nineties that I did that but when I costed up that number, the flights over, car hire, digs and all the flying etc, still ended up about a grand cheaper than the UK. Plus pretty much guaranteed good flying wx ( bar the afternoon cells which did frequent).
Incredible experience. Toured pretty much the entire state including lunch at Key West as part of my 300nm x country.
Things will have changed (cost etc) but maybe worth a look?
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