Running a community pub
Discussion
Not sure this is the correct sub-forum for this, but you never know...
We live in a small village with a long-established, though quiet, freehouse. It has a small 12 cover dining area, a car park for 30-odd cars and is on a quiet A road between two small towns on the Norfolk/Suffolk border.
When we moved here 8 years ago, a pub was one of the 'must have' items on our list. Over the last 8 years, we've been in maybe only half a dozen times. One of the problems is that the opening hours are very inconsistent; you never know if it'll be open for business until you get there. I'm not sure 100% why, but many locals won't patronise it, citing an unfriendly landlord. We've always found him to be welcoming and friendly though (on our infrequent visits).
Anyway, said landlord is retiring to Spain later this year, after running the pub for the last 12 years, and the lease will be up for grabs. At a recent village community bash, we were bemoaning the potential loss of what could/should be a valuable community asset, and we drunkenly decided that we should all get together and approach the owner of the pub with a view for the village to run it ourselves. We're hoping to get a commitment from a few of our neighbours to put a few £1,000 each, and think we could possibly realise around £50k to start off.
We have a meeting with the owner of the pub in a couple of weeks. Though he has no interest in running it himself, we understand that he'd be keen to keep it in it's current use. We really need an overview of the pros & cons of taking on such a venture. There are a couple of community pubs within 10 miles, and we'll speak to them before we jump in, but has anyone here dome similar? Did it work out, or was it a money-pit?
We live in a small village with a long-established, though quiet, freehouse. It has a small 12 cover dining area, a car park for 30-odd cars and is on a quiet A road between two small towns on the Norfolk/Suffolk border.
When we moved here 8 years ago, a pub was one of the 'must have' items on our list. Over the last 8 years, we've been in maybe only half a dozen times. One of the problems is that the opening hours are very inconsistent; you never know if it'll be open for business until you get there. I'm not sure 100% why, but many locals won't patronise it, citing an unfriendly landlord. We've always found him to be welcoming and friendly though (on our infrequent visits).
Anyway, said landlord is retiring to Spain later this year, after running the pub for the last 12 years, and the lease will be up for grabs. At a recent village community bash, we were bemoaning the potential loss of what could/should be a valuable community asset, and we drunkenly decided that we should all get together and approach the owner of the pub with a view for the village to run it ourselves. We're hoping to get a commitment from a few of our neighbours to put a few £1,000 each, and think we could possibly realise around £50k to start off.
We have a meeting with the owner of the pub in a couple of weeks. Though he has no interest in running it himself, we understand that he'd be keen to keep it in it's current use. We really need an overview of the pros & cons of taking on such a venture. There are a couple of community pubs within 10 miles, and we'll speak to them before we jump in, but has anyone here dome similar? Did it work out, or was it a money-pit?
I think it depends on the commercials.
A 12 cover dining area would worry me unless the rent is mega cheap and it’s a massive drinkers pub.
One of my locals is a community pub and it works very well, however they bought the freehold having charged ‘members’ £5k per share via a Ltd company.
They tried getting managers in, but it didn’t work, in the end they rented it to a small (6 pubs) pub chain and they run a very good shop, quality food all day every day and good staff.
The problem with a lease is you have to pay rent then find the money to pay someone to run it, it our case the pub has no mortgage so the rent they get from the pubco is cash in the bank.
I’m a massive fan of community pubs, but be aware that anyone who has put cash in wants an opinion, so get an applicable agreement sorted to include how it’s run and who decides what.
A 12 cover dining area would worry me unless the rent is mega cheap and it’s a massive drinkers pub.
One of my locals is a community pub and it works very well, however they bought the freehold having charged ‘members’ £5k per share via a Ltd company.
They tried getting managers in, but it didn’t work, in the end they rented it to a small (6 pubs) pub chain and they run a very good shop, quality food all day every day and good staff.
The problem with a lease is you have to pay rent then find the money to pay someone to run it, it our case the pub has no mortgage so the rent they get from the pubco is cash in the bank.
I’m a massive fan of community pubs, but be aware that anyone who has put cash in wants an opinion, so get an applicable agreement sorted to include how it’s run and who decides what.
I follow with interest and wish you luck, having an owner who wants to keep it as a pub is a good starting point.
I don't think i'm very far away from you at all so presume you already have The Locks on your list to speak to.
Our village pub has already been listed as a community asset and currently has a lovely couple running it who draw people in but not enough that they deserve. The owner seems dead set on trying to remove all the parking, amongst other things, which would kill it so this is quite possibly something we will come to a head in the next few years. The current landlord said they wouldn't entertain staying to manage it if it became a community pub as there wouldn't be enough money in it for them to live on and to maintain it & they can't see that there would be enough vounteers to keep it open if it wasn't managed. They have quite a bit more dining space than yours.
So something to think about, not just the money to buy the lease but turnover to pay managers or enough locals to staff it.
Very interesting to ready your experience foliedouce
I don't think i'm very far away from you at all so presume you already have The Locks on your list to speak to.
Our village pub has already been listed as a community asset and currently has a lovely couple running it who draw people in but not enough that they deserve. The owner seems dead set on trying to remove all the parking, amongst other things, which would kill it so this is quite possibly something we will come to a head in the next few years. The current landlord said they wouldn't entertain staying to manage it if it became a community pub as there wouldn't be enough money in it for them to live on and to maintain it & they can't see that there would be enough vounteers to keep it open if it wasn't managed. They have quite a bit more dining space than yours.
So something to think about, not just the money to buy the lease but turnover to pay managers or enough locals to staff it.
Very interesting to ready your experience foliedouce
trixical said:
I follow with interest and wish you luck, having an owner who wants to keep it as a pub is a good starting point.
I don't think i'm very far away from you at all so presume you already have The Locks on your list to speak to.
Our village pub has already been listed as a community asset and currently has a lovely couple running it who draw people in but not enough that they deserve. The owner seems dead set on trying to remove all the parking, amongst other things, which would kill it so this is quite possibly something we will come to a head in the next few years. The current landlord said they wouldn't entertain staying to manage it if it became a community pub as there wouldn't be enough money in it for them to live on and to maintain it & they can't see that there would be enough vounteers to keep it open if it wasn't managed. They have quite a bit more dining space than yours.
So something to think about, not just the money to buy the lease but turnover to pay managers or enough locals to staff it.
Very interesting to ready your experience foliedouce
Thanks for that; we had our first 'committee' meeting last night. One of our members (for want of a better word) has met with the owner, who seems very open to our ideas, and is totally committed to having it run as an asset to the community. Our preference, when the incumbent tenant's lease expires, in just under a year, is for a 'real', experienced landlord to take over. Should no-one be forthcoming, then, to save the building/site being sold off for development, we'd step in and take the lease ourselves. We're seeking advice, will put a business plan in place, and start exploring funding options.I don't think i'm very far away from you at all so presume you already have The Locks on your list to speak to.
Our village pub has already been listed as a community asset and currently has a lovely couple running it who draw people in but not enough that they deserve. The owner seems dead set on trying to remove all the parking, amongst other things, which would kill it so this is quite possibly something we will come to a head in the next few years. The current landlord said they wouldn't entertain staying to manage it if it became a community pub as there wouldn't be enough money in it for them to live on and to maintain it & they can't see that there would be enough vounteers to keep it open if it wasn't managed. They have quite a bit more dining space than yours.
So something to think about, not just the money to buy the lease but turnover to pay managers or enough locals to staff it.
Very interesting to ready your experience foliedouce
I know The Locks well, though the business model there is completely different, and not one I'm 100% on board with. They needed to raise a significant sum (in the region of £750,000, IIRC) which they did by offering shares to the general public. One or two famous-ish names invested, (though I'm not sure invested is the best term) heavily, and they were able to purchase the building. However, last month they went back to the public asking for a further £150,000 to upgrade the sewage system. Furthermore, should the big shareholders decide they want their money back (which, incidentally will never be more than they invested in the first place) then the remaining shareholders would need to fund that cost as well.
I did look at investing, so asked my IFA to cast his eye over their proposal. He asked them a whole load of questions, most of which where ignored. The remaining answers didn't stand up to scrutiny, and I was advised to steer clear. On a more basic level, to me, it seems that The Locks is/was an iconic pub, generally frequented by the hippy/alternative litestyle-ists (of which I was once one). The driver behind the purchase wanted to run a pub, but couldn't afford it, so got others to pay for it, which he has done. Good luck to him; it's a lovely pub, and I go there on occasion, but I don't feel comfortable with the way it's been handled.
I will, however, update this thread if/when we progress (if anyone is interested...)
A couple of years ago we looked to try and purchase our local village pub as a community pub.
We were put in touch with the Plunkett Foundation who were really helpful. They will probably put you in touch with a nearby pub which has completed this already. More than a pub initiative as it was - not sure how good it is any more or how much they will offer in terms of grants.
There is a Community Pub Facebook group which is worth joining.
You need to work out the big financials and then work out how close you truly believe you can get to that.
The leaseholder, whilst sounding benevolent, basically just wants their money. How much is this per month?
You say you've only been in there a dozen times - this is the issue. If it isn't being used you won't earn enough to pay for the lease, etc.. There will be beer being poured away.
Be brutal with your business plan. If an activity doesn't make you money don't do it - i.e. don't go spending money on providing food for instance, if you need to pay waiting staff, etc.. I'm not so sure food sales are as good as they used to be - everyone will tell you that you need to sell food but no one will want to prepare and cook it etc.. They can work wonders but if you've only got 12 seats you are never going to make that much money from that side, unless you a focussed on a couple of evenings, such as a burger night and fish and chips evening, etc.. Keep it simple. You could always invite a pizza van or similar roaming kitchen style van to pop along on a Thursday evening or something. Someone may well suggest painting the pub, etc.. with the best will in the world unless it is a right state don't do it, it costs money and may well mean the pub is closed for a period of time.
Wet sales - you need to talk to local breweries. They are usually really helpful and keen to sell you beer. Quite often at decent prices as well.
We had a beer festival as our share launch event. This was really well attended and well supported by the local breweries and a national drinks supplier. Barrels were sponsored by local businesses etc.. In the end proceeds from that went into the local community, but only because our attempt failed.
Be clear on opening times and stick to them and if you do offer food don't row back on it - I think our pub, whilst in a transition period just decided after 1 week to not do sunday lunch or something. So lost out and at that point you could never rely on them to provide sunday lunch.
It will be tough and ideally you need to get a handful of core investors lined up who are prepared to spend fairly sizeable amounts of money and potentially not see much return on their investment... Without a core set, who are stumping up 40%+ you will struggle to raise the rest.
In the end we were lucky that a couple of local business owners decided to buy the pub and renovate and reopen it. Great food, good beer, really good staff.
ACV - Asset of Community Value - make sure you understand this and what it will allow you to do. If I remember rightly if the pub goes on the market you will have a limited amount of time to register the pub as one and it may only apply for a certain period of time. I have 6 months in my mind but it might be longer than that, but all it really means is that it will slow down the sale to persons who wish to convert it into a domestic dwelling or possibly flatten it, whilst you get your financials in place to make an offer.
We were put in touch with the Plunkett Foundation who were really helpful. They will probably put you in touch with a nearby pub which has completed this already. More than a pub initiative as it was - not sure how good it is any more or how much they will offer in terms of grants.
There is a Community Pub Facebook group which is worth joining.
You need to work out the big financials and then work out how close you truly believe you can get to that.
The leaseholder, whilst sounding benevolent, basically just wants their money. How much is this per month?
You say you've only been in there a dozen times - this is the issue. If it isn't being used you won't earn enough to pay for the lease, etc.. There will be beer being poured away.
Be brutal with your business plan. If an activity doesn't make you money don't do it - i.e. don't go spending money on providing food for instance, if you need to pay waiting staff, etc.. I'm not so sure food sales are as good as they used to be - everyone will tell you that you need to sell food but no one will want to prepare and cook it etc.. They can work wonders but if you've only got 12 seats you are never going to make that much money from that side, unless you a focussed on a couple of evenings, such as a burger night and fish and chips evening, etc.. Keep it simple. You could always invite a pizza van or similar roaming kitchen style van to pop along on a Thursday evening or something. Someone may well suggest painting the pub, etc.. with the best will in the world unless it is a right state don't do it, it costs money and may well mean the pub is closed for a period of time.
Wet sales - you need to talk to local breweries. They are usually really helpful and keen to sell you beer. Quite often at decent prices as well.
We had a beer festival as our share launch event. This was really well attended and well supported by the local breweries and a national drinks supplier. Barrels were sponsored by local businesses etc.. In the end proceeds from that went into the local community, but only because our attempt failed.
Be clear on opening times and stick to them and if you do offer food don't row back on it - I think our pub, whilst in a transition period just decided after 1 week to not do sunday lunch or something. So lost out and at that point you could never rely on them to provide sunday lunch.
It will be tough and ideally you need to get a handful of core investors lined up who are prepared to spend fairly sizeable amounts of money and potentially not see much return on their investment... Without a core set, who are stumping up 40%+ you will struggle to raise the rest.
In the end we were lucky that a couple of local business owners decided to buy the pub and renovate and reopen it. Great food, good beer, really good staff.
ACV - Asset of Community Value - make sure you understand this and what it will allow you to do. If I remember rightly if the pub goes on the market you will have a limited amount of time to register the pub as one and it may only apply for a certain period of time. I have 6 months in my mind but it might be longer than that, but all it really means is that it will slow down the sale to persons who wish to convert it into a domestic dwelling or possibly flatten it, whilst you get your financials in place to make an offer.
Interesting thread and subject. I have no direct experience of Community Pubs but I did run a Community Radio Station for six years and there's several points of similarity and resonance from what's been said thus far. I'll focus my reply on one that I think you'd do well to keep in mind.
Adding the word 'Community' before any commercial endeavour gives the impression to many that it's a fluffy, not-for-profit / charitable / low-cost activity. This tends to attract the support (financial and physical) of well-meaning individuals keen to see the evolution of a community asset. As welcome as this is, in 99% of the cases, these individuals would provide better support by using the pub and nothing else.
When I took the helm at the Radio Station, I inherited a board of seven people, all of whom believed they knew exactly how to run a radio station. Some of them did. None of them knew how to run a business or wanted to. Equally, none of them fully grasped the extent of their legal responsibilities and financial risk that they had signed up to. As far as they were concerned, they owned a Radio Station and it took me a good three or four years to demonstrate to them that actually, they owned a business.
This resulted in three or four years of constant fire fighting to keep the station on air when we should have been out doing stuff in the community and putting out shows that people wanted to listen to all of which would have brought in revenue that was largely absent during this time.
We got there eventually.
The lesson learned is to gather together those that fully understand what it is they are getting into and have the capacity to make meaningful contributions towards its success. It's better work with two or three people who know this than 10 or 20 who just fancy the idea of owning a pub.
Good luck.
Adding the word 'Community' before any commercial endeavour gives the impression to many that it's a fluffy, not-for-profit / charitable / low-cost activity. This tends to attract the support (financial and physical) of well-meaning individuals keen to see the evolution of a community asset. As welcome as this is, in 99% of the cases, these individuals would provide better support by using the pub and nothing else.
When I took the helm at the Radio Station, I inherited a board of seven people, all of whom believed they knew exactly how to run a radio station. Some of them did. None of them knew how to run a business or wanted to. Equally, none of them fully grasped the extent of their legal responsibilities and financial risk that they had signed up to. As far as they were concerned, they owned a Radio Station and it took me a good three or four years to demonstrate to them that actually, they owned a business.
This resulted in three or four years of constant fire fighting to keep the station on air when we should have been out doing stuff in the community and putting out shows that people wanted to listen to all of which would have brought in revenue that was largely absent during this time.
We got there eventually.
The lesson learned is to gather together those that fully understand what it is they are getting into and have the capacity to make meaningful contributions towards its success. It's better work with two or three people who know this than 10 or 20 who just fancy the idea of owning a pub.
Good luck.
StevieBee said:
Interesting thread and subject. I have no direct experience of Community Pubs but I did run a Community Radio Station for six years and there's several points of similarity and resonance from what's been said thus far. I'll focus my reply on one that I think you'd do well to keep in mind.
Adding the word 'Community' before any commercial endeavour gives the impression to many that it's a fluffy, not-for-profit / charitable / low-cost activity. This tends to attract the support (financial and physical) of well-meaning individuals keen to see the evolution of a community asset. As welcome as this is, in 99% of the cases, these individuals would provide better support by using the pub and nothing else.
When I took the helm at the Radio Station, I inherited a board of seven people, all of whom believed they knew exactly how to run a radio station. Some of them did. None of them knew how to run a business or wanted to. Equally, none of them fully grasped the extent of their legal responsibilities and financial risk that they had signed up to. As far as they were concerned, they owned a Radio Station and it took me a good three or four years to demonstrate to them that actually, they owned a business.
This resulted in three or four years of constant fire fighting to keep the station on air when we should have been out doing stuff in the community and putting out shows that people wanted to listen to all of which would have brought in revenue that was largely absent during this time.
We got there eventually.
The lesson learned is to gather together those that fully understand what it is they are getting into and have the capacity to make meaningful contributions towards its success. It's better work with two or three people who know this than 10 or 20 who just fancy the idea of owning a pub.
Good luck.
Unrelated but I remember watching your 'day in the life of a DJ' YouTube a few years ago and really enjoyed it!Adding the word 'Community' before any commercial endeavour gives the impression to many that it's a fluffy, not-for-profit / charitable / low-cost activity. This tends to attract the support (financial and physical) of well-meaning individuals keen to see the evolution of a community asset. As welcome as this is, in 99% of the cases, these individuals would provide better support by using the pub and nothing else.
When I took the helm at the Radio Station, I inherited a board of seven people, all of whom believed they knew exactly how to run a radio station. Some of them did. None of them knew how to run a business or wanted to. Equally, none of them fully grasped the extent of their legal responsibilities and financial risk that they had signed up to. As far as they were concerned, they owned a Radio Station and it took me a good three or four years to demonstrate to them that actually, they owned a business.
This resulted in three or four years of constant fire fighting to keep the station on air when we should have been out doing stuff in the community and putting out shows that people wanted to listen to all of which would have brought in revenue that was largely absent during this time.
We got there eventually.
The lesson learned is to gather together those that fully understand what it is they are getting into and have the capacity to make meaningful contributions towards its success. It's better work with two or three people who know this than 10 or 20 who just fancy the idea of owning a pub.
Good luck.
trixical said:
AdeTuono said:
I don't feel comfortable with the way it's been handled.
That's exactly the way I feel about how it was all done.Did this in the village next to us been 10 years going as communtiy pub,
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https://www.glosnews.com/articles/7zqzu8osxa1uonu4...
Details below from story with link to pub is the hub, specialists
https://www.glosnews.com/articles/7zqzu8osxa1uonu4...
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