Discussion
So 43 warnings and penalties were given out in Austria, and they all had in my opinion a detrimental affect on the race!!
The only penalty I agreed with was Perez in Qualy 2 where he cut the inside off the corner on his fastest lap.
With Whinger Spice saying that France is going to be a bigger problem, should the Stewards be taking such a dim view of the whole situation?
Track limit violations on the inside of corners should be penalised, Perez in Austria, Verstappen in the US GP a few years back. You could say these drivers got a material benefit, Perez through to Q3 and Verstappen completed a pass on a competitor.
Track limit violations like Norris in Austria, where he went off at the top of the 1st corner and got penalised are more dubious.
Obviously the majority of the violations in Austria were in the last two corners. Now almost every driver got penalised for those corners. Should that not say to the Stewards that EVERY driver is getting the same advantage and therefore there is no Advantage? The drivers that pushed that corner too far ended up in the wall. There's the penalty for taking too much advantage.
I fear that Paul Ricard is going to be dominated by these stupid penalties all over again.
Monitor track limits in practice, figure out whats going on, but only act on those where there is a demonstrable advantage. If everyone is taking advantage then there is no advantage.
The only penalty I agreed with was Perez in Qualy 2 where he cut the inside off the corner on his fastest lap.
With Whinger Spice saying that France is going to be a bigger problem, should the Stewards be taking such a dim view of the whole situation?
Track limit violations on the inside of corners should be penalised, Perez in Austria, Verstappen in the US GP a few years back. You could say these drivers got a material benefit, Perez through to Q3 and Verstappen completed a pass on a competitor.
Track limit violations like Norris in Austria, where he went off at the top of the 1st corner and got penalised are more dubious.
Obviously the majority of the violations in Austria were in the last two corners. Now almost every driver got penalised for those corners. Should that not say to the Stewards that EVERY driver is getting the same advantage and therefore there is no Advantage? The drivers that pushed that corner too far ended up in the wall. There's the penalty for taking too much advantage.
I fear that Paul Ricard is going to be dominated by these stupid penalties all over again.
Monitor track limits in practice, figure out whats going on, but only act on those where there is a demonstrable advantage. If everyone is taking advantage then there is no advantage.
For me, Austria was the first time they've got it right in ages. Track limits should be non-negotiable - you go off the track it's an infringement; you go off the track too often and you get a penalty for it. Whether an advantage is gained is too woolly a concept to enforce.
It should really be an automated system though, IMO, so the stewards aren't even involved and infringements can be flagged up to the drivers/teams in real-time.
It should really be an automated system though, IMO, so the stewards aren't even involved and infringements can be flagged up to the drivers/teams in real-time.
kambites said:
For me, Austria was the first time they've got it right in ages. Track limits should be non-negotiable - you go off the track it's an infringement; you go off the track too often and you get a penalty for it. Whether an advantage is gained is too woolly a concept to enforce.
It should really be an automated system though, IMO, so the stewards aren't even involved and infringements can be flagged up to the drivers/teams in real-time.
^^this^^It should really be an automated system though, IMO, so the stewards aren't even involved and infringements can be flagged up to the drivers/teams in real-time.
or barriers after the apex
Zetec-S said:
Might be a dumb question 
but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.
This!!!! but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.Because there is no advantage on gravel or grass. The penalties should come from cutting the inside off a corner, that shortens the track, going wide lengthens the track. I appreciate there can be an advantage of carrying more speed on the outside of a corner, but only if your on tarmac.
If you complete ignore track limits then you'll end up with a situation as ridiculous as this:
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
WonkeyDonkey said:
If you complete ignore track limits then you'll end up with a situation as ridiculous as this:
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Yes, so in that instance you either re-design the track to incorporate that racing line, or get rid of the excess tarmac and replace with gravel/grass.https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
WonkeyDonkey said:
If you complete ignore track limits then you'll end up with a situation as ridiculous as this:
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Yeah, but everyone is getting the same advantage therefore there is NO advantage gained by any driver! Track limits are pointless here!https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
If you really want to stop that, then gravel a grass or a wall on the other side of the line will do the job. Note that nobody actually goes near the edge of the tarmac!!!
Zetec-S said:
WonkeyDonkey said:
If you complete ignore track limits then you'll end up with a situation as ridiculous as this:
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Yes, so in that instance you either re-design the track to incorporate that racing line, or get rid of the excess tarmac and replace with gravel/grass.https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
mcdjl said:
Zetec-S said:
WonkeyDonkey said:
If you complete ignore track limits then you'll end up with a situation as ridiculous as this:
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Yes, so in that instance you either re-design the track to incorporate that racing line, or get rid of the excess tarmac and replace with gravel/grass.https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Because if you cut inside the chicane off track you get an advantage.
They should be penalising an individual lasting advantage for one driver who goes off track.
If eveyone is doing it and you want to stop it, put gravel/grass/wall in the way! Just don't ruin a race by penalising everyone
Zetec-S said:
Might be a dumb question but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.
So you want to see 20 odd F1 cars all trying to do 70 donuts on the start/finish line? That would be the logic conclusion if you're saying no to all track limits as it would be the quickest way to cross the start/finish line the required number of times. but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.Most motorsport is meant to measure one of two things, either "Who can go the farthest in a fixed amount of time." or "Who can go a fixed distance in the shortest time.", and the track is there to give the same, fixed distance that all competitors use so the only variables are the car and the driver. If you start letting 1 car cut a corner you have to let all cars cut the corner - at which point you might as well take the corner out, and if you keep doing that you've just invented long distance drag racing!
I've said it before and will say it again. How many track limits violations do you think we'll see at Monaco...?
Odd how drivers who get given the "Oh yes he's one of the best driver in the world but he was just pushing a little too hard and ran a little bit wide, so we'll only give him a warning." at one of the open circuit DON'T seem to push things that same 'little too hard' and run that 'little but wide' between the walls at Monaco. It's almost as if they CAN drive within the limits of the track and DO gain an advantage/don't get disadvantaged by going beyond them.
super7 said:
Zetec-S said:
Might be a dumb question but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.
This!!!! but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.Because there is no advantage on gravel or grass. The penalties should come from cutting the inside off a corner, that shortens the track, going wide lengthens the track. I appreciate there can be an advantage of carrying more speed on the outside of a corner, but only if your on tarmac.
The field of play is determined by the white lines and it's up to a driver to race within that field of play.
Unlike in, say Football, a degree of latitude is permitted due to the dynamic nature of a fast car attempting to find grip through and out of a corner. In the past, the exits went straight from track to grass (or gravel) but this was dangerous and also meant cars could exit a race for the most minor of slides. Tarmac keeps more cars in a race but that doesn't mean that the tarmac can be used as an extension to the race track. So the track limit penalty replaces that which would be provided naturally with grass or gravel.
By removing the penalties, you would be redefining the field of play which was designed to test the ability of drivers and cars. And where would it stop? At the barrier?
You have to define the track and it's up to the drivers to keep in on the track and face penalty if they don't.
You need track limits, otherwise people will take the piss (Like that Indycar video) and make up their own track. Why not nip through a little access road to bypass 50% of the track? If they all do it, no one gains an advantage.
It's not track limits that's the problem it's the consistency of enforcement. It's always been that the bit of tarmac between the white lines is the track.
If the FIA enforce track limits consistently, the drivers will get the point eventually. Issuing warnings for being 10mm over the line might seem harsh, but there's a speed advantage doing it.
It's not track limits that's the problem it's the consistency of enforcement. It's always been that the bit of tarmac between the white lines is the track.
If the FIA enforce track limits consistently, the drivers will get the point eventually. Issuing warnings for being 10mm over the line might seem harsh, but there's a speed advantage doing it.
super7 said:
mcdjl said:
Zetec-S said:
WonkeyDonkey said:
If you complete ignore track limits then you'll end up with a situation as ridiculous as this:
https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Yes, so in that instance you either re-design the track to incorporate that racing line, or get rid of the excess tarmac and replace with gravel/grass.https://youtu.be/cmpRr2G0Bek
Because if you cut inside the chicane off track you get an advantage.
They should be penalising an individual lasting advantage for one driver who goes off track.
If eveyone is doing it and you want to stop it, put gravel/grass/wall in the way! Just don't ruin a race by penalising everyone
//j17 said:
Odd how drivers who get given the "Oh yes he's one of the best driver in the world but he was just pushing a little too hard and ran a little bit wide, so we'll only give him a warning." at one of the open circuit DON'T seem to push things that same 'little too hard' and run that 'little but wide' between the walls at Monaco. It's almost as if they CAN drive within the limits of the track and DO gain an advantage/don't get disadvantaged by going beyond them.
Your logic is sound, however given the drivers seating position in a modern F1 car, I think it's reasonable to be able to be aware and closer to a barrier at Monaco, which is in their line of sight, and visible to the top of the front tyres.Being able to judge their placement of the car to a painted line on the ground, that in reality is going to disappear from their visible horizon about 50m before they get there, I can under that this is much more difficult.
The key is not looking at where the tyre closest to the track is, but looking at the other side of the car, and questioning why the painted kerb that is being ridden isnt far more damaging to the lap time
//j17 said:
Zetec-S said:
Might be a dumb question but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.
So you want to see 20 odd F1 cars all trying to do 70 donuts on the start/finish line? That would be the logic conclusion if you're saying no to all track limits as it would be the quickest way to cross the start/finish line the required number of times. but why the need for track limits? Let the drivers use whatever bit of tarmac they want and get on and race. Gravel or grass for the bits they aren't supposed to use. Everyone has the same choice and no ambiguity.Most motorsport is meant to measure one of two things, either "Who can go the farthest in a fixed amount of time." or "Who can go a fixed distance in the shortest time.", and the track is there to give the same, fixed distance that all competitors use so the only variables are the car and the driver. If you start letting 1 car cut a corner you have to let all cars cut the corner - at which point you might as well take the corner out, and if you keep doing that you've just invented long distance drag racing!
I've said it before and will say it again. How many track limits violations do you think we'll see at Monaco...?
Odd how drivers who get given the "Oh yes he's one of the best driver in the world but he was just pushing a little too hard and ran a little bit wide, so we'll only give him a warning." at one of the open circuit DON'T seem to push things that same 'little too hard' and run that 'little but wide' between the walls at Monaco. It's almost as if they CAN drive within the limits of the track and DO gain an advantage/don't get disadvantaged by going beyond them.
they need to be enforced, but only where advantage can be gained or where the driver isn't forced outside limits by somebody else. The penalty however should not be a fixed value added to race time. It should be a racing penalty and within a lap so any advantage gained vs another driver can be given back, no energy deployment for a sector / lap or something.
To negate advantage gaining we used to have gravel but this ends up beaching modern cars and removing them from the race. Grass doesn't beach the cars but when its wet it becomes incredibly slippy making it more dangerous than gravel. Tarmac runoffs are grippy and give drivers room to take advantage but they also allow drivers to stop, correct the car and rejoin the race.
We can get rid of track limits penalties when we have a solution that is sufficiently less grippy than tarmac that's its impossible to gain advantage from but doesn't turn into an ice rink the moment it gets wet.
The simple answer in my head is wet/damp tarmac which is fine in wet conditions and with a dry tack and warm tyres would provide less grip without having too much of an effect on tyre temps.
To negate advantage gaining we used to have gravel but this ends up beaching modern cars and removing them from the race. Grass doesn't beach the cars but when its wet it becomes incredibly slippy making it more dangerous than gravel. Tarmac runoffs are grippy and give drivers room to take advantage but they also allow drivers to stop, correct the car and rejoin the race.
We can get rid of track limits penalties when we have a solution that is sufficiently less grippy than tarmac that's its impossible to gain advantage from but doesn't turn into an ice rink the moment it gets wet.
The simple answer in my head is wet/damp tarmac which is fine in wet conditions and with a dry tack and warm tyres would provide less grip without having too much of an effect on tyre temps.
There has to be a way that sensors could be incorporated at a certain point under cars.
When they cross an imbedded detection line it triggers a penalty.
My version would be predetermined time period where you have reduced power or a limiter is applied.
Or just as a DRS flap opens, on the underside of the wing a flap will drop, drs is disabled so you now have extra drag for a period of time.
You could put gravel or grass but instead of a car being out or spinning they stay in the race but are penalized. Make the penalty sufficiently bad that it rewards the accurate drivers and costs you if you make a mistake.
When they cross an imbedded detection line it triggers a penalty.
My version would be predetermined time period where you have reduced power or a limiter is applied.
Or just as a DRS flap opens, on the underside of the wing a flap will drop, drs is disabled so you now have extra drag for a period of time.
You could put gravel or grass but instead of a car being out or spinning they stay in the race but are penalized. Make the penalty sufficiently bad that it rewards the accurate drivers and costs you if you make a mistake.
//j17 said:
So you want to see 20 odd F1 cars all trying to do 70 donuts on the start/finish line? That would be the logic conclusion if you're saying no to all track limits as it would be the quickest way to cross the start/finish line the required number of times.
Most motorsport is meant to measure one of two things, either "Who can go the farthest in a fixed amount of time." or "Who can go a fixed distance in the shortest time.", and the track is there to give the same, fixed distance that all competitors use so the only variables are the car and the driver. If you start letting 1 car cut a corner you have to let all cars cut the corner - at which point you might as well take the corner out, and if you keep doing that you've just invented long distance drag racing!
I've said it before and will say it again. How many track limits violations do you think we'll see at Monaco...?
Odd how drivers who get given the "Oh yes he's one of the best driver in the world but he was just pushing a little too hard and ran a little bit wide, so we'll only give him a warning." at one of the open circuit DON'T seem to push things that same 'little too hard' and run that 'little but wide' between the walls at Monaco. It's almost as if they CAN drive within the limits of the track and DO gain an advantage/don't get disadvantaged by going beyond them.
No need to be obtuse. As I've already said, circuits should be designed with an optimum racing line in mind, with physical barriers, curbs, gravel, grass, etc, to stop drivers taking shortcuts.Most motorsport is meant to measure one of two things, either "Who can go the farthest in a fixed amount of time." or "Who can go a fixed distance in the shortest time.", and the track is there to give the same, fixed distance that all competitors use so the only variables are the car and the driver. If you start letting 1 car cut a corner you have to let all cars cut the corner - at which point you might as well take the corner out, and if you keep doing that you've just invented long distance drag racing!
I've said it before and will say it again. How many track limits violations do you think we'll see at Monaco...?
Odd how drivers who get given the "Oh yes he's one of the best driver in the world but he was just pushing a little too hard and ran a little bit wide, so we'll only give him a warning." at one of the open circuit DON'T seem to push things that same 'little too hard' and run that 'little but wide' between the walls at Monaco. It's almost as if they CAN drive within the limits of the track and DO gain an advantage/don't get disadvantaged by going beyond them.
No discussion on this topic is complete without this one from Mr Zanardi.
https://youtu.be/ywsB65YfLOQ
I know it’s outrageous, but the truth is that deep inside we all enjoy it don’t we?
https://youtu.be/ywsB65YfLOQ
I know it’s outrageous, but the truth is that deep inside we all enjoy it don’t we?
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