Discussion
I have always wondered what the smaller teams get out of F1?
The like if Alpha Tauri, Alfa Romeo, Williams, Aston Martin. In their current guises they don’t seem to have the funds to ever be fighting for the championship. Unless the cost cap really shakes things up.
Why do they do it? Is it simply they are companies designed to do well enough to break even and make a profit? The goal being to make money or do they all think in couple of years time they will be taking on the big boys? But they never seem to.
I don’t wish to belittle what they do the sport needs them, just wondering what the motivation is?
I know other sports have teams that don’t win. After all there can only be one PL champion every year. But F1 is a bit unique because quite often the teams are backed or owned by companies that’s main business isn’t F1.
The like if Alpha Tauri, Alfa Romeo, Williams, Aston Martin. In their current guises they don’t seem to have the funds to ever be fighting for the championship. Unless the cost cap really shakes things up.
Why do they do it? Is it simply they are companies designed to do well enough to break even and make a profit? The goal being to make money or do they all think in couple of years time they will be taking on the big boys? But they never seem to.
I don’t wish to belittle what they do the sport needs them, just wondering what the motivation is?
I know other sports have teams that don’t win. After all there can only be one PL champion every year. But F1 is a bit unique because quite often the teams are backed or owned by companies that’s main business isn’t F1.
Think of it in business terms. Should every soft drinks company shutdown because they're not making as much money as Coca-Cola are?
The smaller teams are employing a lot of people and the companies sponsoring them are obviously happy with the return they are getting for the advertising budget or they wouldn't be doing it.
Add in the fact that it's a fun business to be in and why wouldn't they do it even though the chances of them winning are slim?
The smaller teams are employing a lot of people and the companies sponsoring them are obviously happy with the return they are getting for the advertising budget or they wouldn't be doing it.
Add in the fact that it's a fun business to be in and why wouldn't they do it even though the chances of them winning are slim?
And those smaller teams are now worth a lot of money..... look at Andretti trying to get in!!! How much do they have to stump up even to get on the back of grid??
Also, with the Budget cap, each team now has the same money to design a car, over the next 2-3years, expect these to even out the performance as most of this years cars, were designed last year when more money was available.
These small teams are now holders of a very valuable franchise
Also, with the Budget cap, each team now has the same money to design a car, over the next 2-3years, expect these to even out the performance as most of this years cars, were designed last year when more money was available.
These small teams are now holders of a very valuable franchise
entropy said:
Basically, they compete because of the sheer love of it. The business side of things is to continue those endeavors.
Small teams, big teams, I think that's the basic truth for every team on the grid. When the love or need to compete outweighs what the business endeavors can support is when the trouble starts.super7 said:
And those smaller teams are now worth a lot of money..... look at Andretti trying to get in!!! How much do they have to stump up even to get on the back of grid??
Also, with the Budget cap, each team now has the same money to design a car, over the next 2-3years, expect these to even out the performance as most of this years cars, were designed last year when more money was available.
These small teams are now holders of a very valuable franchise
Yes, the smaller teams now have massive value as businesses, and can be expected over time to be able to spend up to the budget cap, in a very much more levelled playing field. Also, with the Budget cap, each team now has the same money to design a car, over the next 2-3years, expect these to even out the performance as most of this years cars, were designed last year when more money was available.
These small teams are now holders of a very valuable franchise
entropy said:
Basically, they compete because of the sheer love of it. The business side of things is to continue those endeavors.
This!You can ask the same of any lower ranking team of any sport.
The spirit of competition, innovation, the engineering challenges, political manoeuvring... all makes for meaningful endeavour and a nice way to earn a living.
All the teams have revenue streams that we tend to forget about.
Hospitality away from the circuit on race days is becoming more and more popular,feed and entertaining a couple of hundred people at the HQ while they see the home team doing business.
Many of them do engineering of consultancy work for others in the automotive world and lots of those from outside of it .
I heard a great quote about value for money in sponsoring race cars , win or crash the publicity is about the same .
Hospitality away from the circuit on race days is becoming more and more popular,feed and entertaining a couple of hundred people at the HQ while they see the home team doing business.
Many of them do engineering of consultancy work for others in the automotive world and lots of those from outside of it .
I heard a great quote about value for money in sponsoring race cars , win or crash the publicity is about the same .
In the past this was all about massive sponsorship money principally from tobacco companies. Then there was a ~15 year gap where small teams were basically lossmaking vanity projects for particularly flush corporations and individuals. The losses could be reduced but rarely annulled with pay drivers and with strenuous effort to secure sponsorship from a wide cast of smaller sponsors, none of whom wanted to pay tobacco company levels of money. Those teams only lasted as long as their respective sugar daddies remained interested. Since a significant financial barrier to entry was put in place for teams, and the budget cap introduced, I am pretty sure I read that all teams basically have an opportunity to be profit making entities, which has of course caused them to rocket in value.
HustleRussell said:
In the past this was all about massive sponsorship money principally from tobacco companies. Then there was a ~15 year gap where small teams were basically lossmaking vanity projects for particularly flush corporations and individuals. The losses could be reduced but rarely annulled with pay drivers and with strenuous effort to secure sponsorship from a wide cast of smaller sponsors, none of whom wanted to pay tobacco company levels of money. Those teams only lasted as long as their respective sugar daddies remained interested. Since a significant financial barrier to entry was put in place for teams, and the budget cap introduced, I am pretty sure I read that all teams basically have an opportunity to be profit making entities, which has of course caused them to rocket in value.
A lot is made of tobacco sponsorship but the heyday for it was the 80s and more the 90s. Though sponsorship took off in the 70s it was prize money teams and drivers relied on most, hence competing in different series, and why non-championship F1 races were lucrative as they could offer better prize money than some championship races.Formula One Constructors Association unionized the teams to offer better championship prize money and when a team became a member (usually independant Anglo team) benefits included cheaper freight costs.
The current small teams are a lot more stable than those of the 90s or even the recent Caterham, Marussia, Hispania trio.
It's my understanding that F1 has provided the current teams with a business model that means their teams have an inherent value of around 200 million, they have done this by ensuring it costs more than this to enter with a team from scratch, making buying an existing team the more attractive option.
A more equitable sharing of prize money also means if you manage your team within the budget cap and finish in the upper half of the field you make a significant profit, below that and you lose but not too badly (sponsors and pay drivers help). So the model becomes sustainable.
Smaller teams can offer much better value for money to sponsors too, ok I'm going back a long way here but remember the 7up Jordan, the iconic 191? Remember the same sponsor on a Benetton? Of course not, better to be a title sponsor of a small team than a small sticker on a successful team.
I do think F1 is missing a trick though, you do need a Minardi or a Tyrell or a Jordan team who can give the bigger teams a bloody nose on their day. Fans might like to see Ferrari/Mercedes win, but who wouldn't love to see a Haas on the podium? They are the closest we have at the moment, but true garagistas, they are not in F1 anymore. The sport is becoming too elitist (even more than before) too professional and a little boring as a result. Give me the small team who are there purely because they are racers and I will cheer them all the way home.
It's my understanding that F1 has provided the current teams with a business model that means their teams have an inherent value of around 200 million, they have done this by ensuring it costs more than this to enter with a team from scratch, making buying an existing team the more attractive option.
A more equitable sharing of prize money also means if you manage your team within the budget cap and finish in the upper half of the field you make a significant profit, below that and you lose but not too badly (sponsors and pay drivers help). So the model becomes sustainable.
Smaller teams can offer much better value for money to sponsors too, ok I'm going back a long way here but remember the 7up Jordan, the iconic 191? Remember the same sponsor on a Benetton? Of course not, better to be a title sponsor of a small team than a small sticker on a successful team.
I do think F1 is missing a trick though, you do need a Minardi or a Tyrell or a Jordan team who can give the bigger teams a bloody nose on their day. Fans might like to see Ferrari/Mercedes win, but who wouldn't love to see a Haas on the podium? They are the closest we have at the moment, but true garagistas, they are not in F1 anymore. The sport is becoming too elitist (even more than before) too professional and a little boring as a result. Give me the small team who are there purely because they are racers and I will cheer them all the way home.
patmahe said:
I do think F1 is missing a trick though, you do need a Minardi or a Tyrell or a Jordan team who can give the bigger teams a bloody nose on their day. Fans might like to see Ferrari/Mercedes win, but who wouldn't love to see a Haas on the podium? They are the closest we have at the moment, but true garagistas, they are not in F1 anymore. The sport is becoming too elitist (even more than before) too professional and a little boring as a result. Give me the small team who are there purely because they are racers and I will cheer them all the way home.
Speaking from inside a successful team, the scale and quality of operation required to be at the sharp end is frankly mind blowing. I think you're probably right that the garagista team, armed only with skill and a can do attitude, aren't really a part of F1 anymore, however romantic the notion.SturdyHSV said:
patmahe said:
I do think F1 is missing a trick though, you do need a Minardi or a Tyrell or a Jordan team who can give the bigger teams a bloody nose on their day. Fans might like to see Ferrari/Mercedes win, but who wouldn't love to see a Haas on the podium? They are the closest we have at the moment, but true garagistas, they are not in F1 anymore. The sport is becoming too elitist (even more than before) too professional and a little boring as a result. Give me the small team who are there purely because they are racers and I will cheer them all the way home.
Speaking from inside a successful team, the scale and quality of operation required to be at the sharp end is frankly mind blowing. I think you're probably right that the garagista team, armed only with skill and a can do attitude, aren't really a part of F1 anymore, however romantic the notion.A Winner Is You said:
Plus even when the smaller teams were in F1, they were so hopelessly uncompetitive the sport had to introduce pre-qualifying. Still, I can't help but wonder how the younger social media generation of fans would react if the current grid included comedy teams such as Life walking around the pits asking to borrow a tyre inflater since they forgot to bring one, or Andrea Moda trying to kill their second driver because they didn't like him.
I was thinking more of the likes of Minardi and Super Aguri who bought and updated the Arrows A23 chassis. Believe it or not Minardi were doing things ahead of their time https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...entropy said:
A Winner Is You said:
Plus even when the smaller teams were in F1, they were so hopelessly uncompetitive the sport had to introduce pre-qualifying. Still, I can't help but wonder how the younger social media generation of fans would react if the current grid included comedy teams such as Life walking around the pits asking to borrow a tyre inflater since they forgot to bring one, or Andrea Moda trying to kill their second driver because they didn't like him.
I was thinking more of the likes of Minardi and Super Aguri who bought and updated the Arrows A23 chassis. Believe it or not Minardi were doing things ahead of their time https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...entropy said:
I was thinking more of the likes of Minardi and Super Aguri who bought and updated the Arrows A23 chassis. Believe it or not Minardi were doing things ahead of their time https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Minardi always had beautifully prepared cars and often bought innovation. They always punched well. Fondly rememberedWhat The Deuces said:
entropy said:
I was thinking more of the likes of Minardi and Super Aguri who bought and updated the Arrows A23 chassis. Believe it or not Minardi were doing things ahead of their time https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Minardi always had beautifully prepared cars and often bought innovation. They always punched well. Fondly rememberedWatching that brought it home to me that the only difference between the top teams and the bottom teams was money, they're all trying just as hard as each other, all have the same ambitions, similar abilities and its the money that gets you that final 1% overall to get to the top.
Thats why I think the budget cap is one of the best things to happen to F1 in recent years, you can't just spend your way out of trouble anymore, you have to innovate, we're going to see some wonderful things come from the greatest engineering minds over the next few years. I can't wait
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