Geologist Jailed In Iraq
Discussion
irc said:
You wouldn't catch me going to Iraq. Even in the USA I wouldn't go through customs with items stolen from their National Parks.
All that said the sentence is excessive. Send our man roundvto point this out.
I think the Iraqui's have granted leniency due to age. The sentence for the crime is usually the death penalty. Seems excessive, but their country, their rules etc.All that said the sentence is excessive. Send our man roundvto point this out.
Quite.
If an Iraqi person came here on their holidays, committed a capital offence (ok, there aren't any, so let's say a life term offence), how much sympathy would the average UK person be to clemency because "they didn't know"?
This is the amount of sympathy I have for this guy.
I see sections of the press want the government to fix it.
So similarly, would we be happy with the Iraqi PM telling our home secretary to release said prisoner because we should feel sorry for him?
When you say it out loud, it's just ridiculous.
Probably what's surprised people is the crime carries the death penalty. It was presumably set to end the strip mining of antiquities from their country, which has no doubt seen many stolen over time.
I've taken rocks from a UK beach... which is technically a crime, but just ignored.
But I've been to Hawaii, and handing native species, or transporting organic stuff is a massive deal to them.
Perhaps it is an over reaction by Iraq over a few bits of pottery.
(Do we owe them £400m from an old arms deal? No,)
So presumably this isn't politically motivated, and is just a really touchy subject to the Iraqi people.
I don't think we have any business dictating to them how they should police their country, in the same way we wouldn't accept it from them.
I would hope after a year or two the foreign office allow him to be transferred to serve the test of the sentence in the UK, but don't see why a UK passport should be seen as some sort of cart blanche to avoid consequences abroad
If an Iraqi person came here on their holidays, committed a capital offence (ok, there aren't any, so let's say a life term offence), how much sympathy would the average UK person be to clemency because "they didn't know"?
This is the amount of sympathy I have for this guy.
I see sections of the press want the government to fix it.
So similarly, would we be happy with the Iraqi PM telling our home secretary to release said prisoner because we should feel sorry for him?
When you say it out loud, it's just ridiculous.
Probably what's surprised people is the crime carries the death penalty. It was presumably set to end the strip mining of antiquities from their country, which has no doubt seen many stolen over time.
I've taken rocks from a UK beach... which is technically a crime, but just ignored.
But I've been to Hawaii, and handing native species, or transporting organic stuff is a massive deal to them.
Perhaps it is an over reaction by Iraq over a few bits of pottery.
(Do we owe them £400m from an old arms deal? No,)
So presumably this isn't politically motivated, and is just a really touchy subject to the Iraqi people.
I don't think we have any business dictating to them how they should police their country, in the same way we wouldn't accept it from them.
I would hope after a year or two the foreign office allow him to be transferred to serve the test of the sentence in the UK, but don't see why a UK passport should be seen as some sort of cart blanche to avoid consequences abroad
Ian Geary said:
Perhaps it is an over reaction by Iraq over a few bits of pottery.
(Do we owe them £400m from an old arms deal? No,)
So presumably this isn't politically motivated, and is just a really touchy subject to the Iraqi people.
Reading the BBC article shards of pottery around two hundred years old, so hardly looting the treasures of antiquity!(Do we owe them £400m from an old arms deal? No,)
So presumably this isn't politically motivated, and is just a really touchy subject to the Iraqi people.
The solution is really don't visit these sorts of countries and that should be the lesson to be drawn. Shame for the old bloke who will be spending most of his remaining years in jail, but hopefully a lesson for everyone else.
BabySharkDooDooDooDooDooDoo said:
Considering how mental archaeologists and academics in the U.K. get when people with metal detectors keep a few Roman coins, you’d think he’d have an inkling that stealing artefacts from Iraq was not the best idea.
My local cricket pitch is on the site of a roman fort. Stumps can only be placed in specified areas. Little sympathy I’m afraid. I’m quite sure a) he knew what he was doing, b) knew the potential penalties involved. 15 years is a long time and I’m sure some financial restorations in the background will reduce that. But don’t forget someone like Lindsay Sandiford has spent a decade on death row in Indonesia for failing to respect their drug smuggling laws.
Our, and many other European and North American, museums are full of artefacts looted from Middle East, Africa, and Far East. There are still disputes about certain pieces. I think they're rightly pissed off with people stealing their history, and if they wish to impose deterrent punishments, that's their prerogative. The lesson is, don't go to somebody else's country, break their laws, and expect to get away with it. Don't take a load of codeine containing drugs to Dubai, don't take chewing gum to Singapore, don't smuggle drugs anywhere, don't steal historical artefacts from anywhere. Not that difficult.
In all fairness the punishment does not fit the crime.......
But...
Being the Middle East, they are usually very severe with the punishments they dish out, which are usually completely out of step with the western world hence our horror at them.
We would have smacked him on the wrist, banned him from the country maybe and given him a fine. They give him 15 years.
Maybe the government should have a word in the Iraqi ambassadors ear, maybe they did!
Maybe he should have realised how extreme these countries are and like Iran how they can use you for political reasons and just need an excuse to use you as a pawn in their political games.
Moral of the story, either don't go there and if you do, realise the risks and be squeaky clean.
But...
Being the Middle East, they are usually very severe with the punishments they dish out, which are usually completely out of step with the western world hence our horror at them.
We would have smacked him on the wrist, banned him from the country maybe and given him a fine. They give him 15 years.
Maybe the government should have a word in the Iraqi ambassadors ear, maybe they did!
Maybe he should have realised how extreme these countries are and like Iran how they can use you for political reasons and just need an excuse to use you as a pawn in their political games.
Moral of the story, either don't go there and if you do, realise the risks and be squeaky clean.
deckster said:
eldar said:
My local cricket pitch is on the site of a roman fort. Stumps can only be placed in specified areas.
Either end of the crease would seem to make most sense?
Bearing in mind the Museums of Iraq were looted of artifacts and sold by black market traders after the war so it is hardly a surprise the Iraqis take this very seriously.
Yes it is horrible and 15 years is significant but I think he was naive to believe he had permission without checking/getting a permit, etc. The family have been on the local news pleading their case but I don't think it is garnering huge support. I think he will serve a couple of years and then be sent home as it allows the Iraqis to send the message.
Interesting the German also accused got let off (I don't recall Germany invading Iraq so double standards possibly?).
Yes it is horrible and 15 years is significant but I think he was naive to believe he had permission without checking/getting a permit, etc. The family have been on the local news pleading their case but I don't think it is garnering huge support. I think he will serve a couple of years and then be sent home as it allows the Iraqis to send the message.
Interesting the German also accused got let off (I don't recall Germany invading Iraq so double standards possibly?).
gottans said:
Bearing in mind the Museums of Iraq were looted of artifacts and sold by black market traders after the war so it is hardly a surprise the Iraqis take this very seriously.
Yes it is horrible and 15 years is significant but I think he was naive to believe he had permission without checking/getting a permit, etc. The family have been on the local news pleading their case but I don't think it is garnering huge support. I think he will serve a couple of years and then be sent home as it allows the Iraqis to send the message.
Interesting the German also accused got let off (I don't recall Germany invading Iraq so double standards possibly?).
Based solely on the news, it looks very much like the German guy threw the British guy under the bus, as it were.Yes it is horrible and 15 years is significant but I think he was naive to believe he had permission without checking/getting a permit, etc. The family have been on the local news pleading their case but I don't think it is garnering huge support. I think he will serve a couple of years and then be sent home as it allows the Iraqis to send the message.
Interesting the German also accused got let off (I don't recall Germany invading Iraq so double standards possibly?).
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