Suspension setting up.
Discussion
Is there anyone out there who knows the best place to take me 450SE to have the whole suspension set up checked and correctly set up if need be.
Its got new AVO adjustables all round, new springs & poly bushes which are all ok I just want to know its set up correctly.
Maybe a suspension specialist around kent area.
Its got new AVO adjustables all round, new springs & poly bushes which are all ok I just want to know its set up correctly.
Maybe a suspension specialist around kent area.
There's a lot of work involved in setting a car up from scratch, not just labour but it takes a lot of knowledge and experience too. In principle there's nothing here that you couldn't do yourself, in practice you could easily spend years reading about it and experimenting with your car before you get it right. For me this learning experience is part of the fun of owning the car and I really would begrudge paying somebody else to do it. But I suspect most people are not really interested in the details of car handing and don't want to spend their weekends covered in oil. If this is you then I suggest you think about where you buy your dampers from, the cheapest supplier is probably not the best source.
Putting them on the car is only the first step in fitting aftermarket suspension components. The tricky part is setting them up properly, this is where the knowledge and experience is required. In some ways it is a shame that the first step is so easy because it encourages people to tackle a job that they are not really qualified to finish. I think this is probably true of many professional fitters, as well as DIY enthusiasts. Being able to wield a spanner does not qualify you to set the suspension up.
If you're going down this route then the first thing to sort out is who is going to set them up. Pick their brains to make sure you get the appropriate spec of damper, and a brand and type they are familiar with so they don't have to spend their time and your money finding out how your dampers behave. Ideally buy the dampers through your suspension specialist so they can ensure the dampers they get are the right ones and working properly, I also think it is only common courtesy you let your specialist benefit from the margin on the dampers rather than have the money go to somebody who has done no more than stack the dampers on a shelf.
Sorry, bit of a rant there, not aimed at anyone on this thread just something that has built up after many many posts over the years along the lines of 'I got these cheap dampers and fitted them myself, now please tell me how to set the suspension up (for free)'. That's a bit cheaky in my opinion - not that it is what happened here. I'll get me coat ...
Putting them on the car is only the first step in fitting aftermarket suspension components. The tricky part is setting them up properly, this is where the knowledge and experience is required. In some ways it is a shame that the first step is so easy because it encourages people to tackle a job that they are not really qualified to finish. I think this is probably true of many professional fitters, as well as DIY enthusiasts. Being able to wield a spanner does not qualify you to set the suspension up.
If you're going down this route then the first thing to sort out is who is going to set them up. Pick their brains to make sure you get the appropriate spec of damper, and a brand and type they are familiar with so they don't have to spend their time and your money finding out how your dampers behave. Ideally buy the dampers through your suspension specialist so they can ensure the dampers they get are the right ones and working properly, I also think it is only common courtesy you let your specialist benefit from the margin on the dampers rather than have the money go to somebody who has done no more than stack the dampers on a shelf.
Sorry, bit of a rant there, not aimed at anyone on this thread just something that has built up after many many posts over the years along the lines of 'I got these cheap dampers and fitted them myself, now please tell me how to set the suspension up (for free)'. That's a bit cheaky in my opinion - not that it is what happened here. I'll get me coat ...
We all sell mail order to the DIY market including Jools but it's not just about springs and click settings, I always advise people who talk to me, by all means have your fun fitting them yourself but at the end of it, at least have the four wheel alignment done and if you want perfection, go for corner weighting.
In my opinion, and i know I have an interest in this but .. I see no point in selling something like suspension components unless you have a knowledge of how those components will benefit the customer.
In order to do this fully you really need to have done proper development because only then will you have a background of knowledge and experience to *tailor* a package to suit a driver's requirments. Even then it will be a compromise of sorts, but hopefully you'll be shifting the compromise more to what that driver requires than an average set-up that may or may not help.
I do sell dampers mail order, but each kit is done on the basis of many e-mails and/or calls to ensure we get something close to what the driver requires.
It's my belief that many people buy suspension that isn't in fact doing them anywhere near as much good as it might have had it been specced with their particular application in mind.
I would urge anybody buying suspension (and i say this to my customers all the time ..) to go and call as many suspension outlets as you possibly can, talk to them at length and in detail about how their kit can help you, find out how far they're prepared to go to ensure you and your car work as well together as possible, and then spend your money with whoever you feel offers you the best package.
I have no problem with people buying their dampers and having them fitted elsewhere if someone else offers a better pack than i can, but i suspect many people are swayed by low prices which in the end may lead to poor value for money because of bad speccing and/or set-up.
I would also advise as Peter says to let one outfit source, tailor and fit/set-up your car from start to finish as that way you know that you're getting someone fitting your kit who has an interest in making sure you get the best car every step of the way. It also cuts out the supplier blaming the fitter and vice versa if there's a later problem to be ironed out.
There's a few places like me who develop their own versions of dampers specifically to benefit a certain type of car. I for instance have nine versions of Nitron damper for the cerbera that i can call on, and any of those can be modified even further. And i don't care what anybody says, you *will* notice the difference between a generic kit and one specced specifically to your needs with a car set-up to suit you from someone who's developed those dampers themselves and knows intimately how they perform.
Do your research, pick the best total package, I suspect you'll find the best isn't a *pile it high, sell it cheap* outfit ...
in my opinion ..
In order to do this fully you really need to have done proper development because only then will you have a background of knowledge and experience to *tailor* a package to suit a driver's requirments. Even then it will be a compromise of sorts, but hopefully you'll be shifting the compromise more to what that driver requires than an average set-up that may or may not help.
I do sell dampers mail order, but each kit is done on the basis of many e-mails and/or calls to ensure we get something close to what the driver requires.
It's my belief that many people buy suspension that isn't in fact doing them anywhere near as much good as it might have had it been specced with their particular application in mind.
I would urge anybody buying suspension (and i say this to my customers all the time ..) to go and call as many suspension outlets as you possibly can, talk to them at length and in detail about how their kit can help you, find out how far they're prepared to go to ensure you and your car work as well together as possible, and then spend your money with whoever you feel offers you the best package.
I have no problem with people buying their dampers and having them fitted elsewhere if someone else offers a better pack than i can, but i suspect many people are swayed by low prices which in the end may lead to poor value for money because of bad speccing and/or set-up.
I would also advise as Peter says to let one outfit source, tailor and fit/set-up your car from start to finish as that way you know that you're getting someone fitting your kit who has an interest in making sure you get the best car every step of the way. It also cuts out the supplier blaming the fitter and vice versa if there's a later problem to be ironed out.
There's a few places like me who develop their own versions of dampers specifically to benefit a certain type of car. I for instance have nine versions of Nitron damper for the cerbera that i can call on, and any of those can be modified even further. And i don't care what anybody says, you *will* notice the difference between a generic kit and one specced specifically to your needs with a car set-up to suit you from someone who's developed those dampers themselves and knows intimately how they perform.
Do your research, pick the best total package, I suspect you'll find the best isn't a *pile it high, sell it cheap* outfit ...
in my opinion ..
trackcar said:
Maybe the person who sold you the kit then left you high and dry might offer some assistance?
Who said I was high & dry, it was not a kit the complete suspension and brake setup was upgraded and I think is working fine, I just wanted an "expert" opinion as to whether it is set to the optimum. The work was carried out by Austec who did a fine job.
>> Edited by redcar on Saturday 6th August 15:17
I don't know much about Austec's background but presumably they count as 'experts' as far as suspension setup goes? If they've set the car up I'm not sure why you want somebody else to go over it and do it again? Not saying you're wrong, just puzzled by the implication that Austec didn't do the job properly in the first place. I don't have any personal experience of Austec's suspension work, but most people who deal with them seem very complementary.
I don't have a problem with single sourcing and installation and accordingly I supply about eight of the TVR independants with shocks and springs but I would suggest that steering the DIY market in the right direction on fitting and basic settings is fine, as long as they get a geo check afterwards.
GreenV8S said:
I don't know much about Austec's background but presumably they count as 'experts' as far as suspension setup goes? If they've set the car up I'm not sure why you want somebody else to go over it and do it again? Not saying you're wrong, just puzzled by the implication that Austec didn't do the job properly in the first place. I don't have any personal experience of Austec's suspension work, but most people who deal with them seem very complementary.
YHM
On reflection I think I probably owe you an apology redcar, my response to your enquiry hasn't been as constructive as you deserve. I've been getting a bit fed up by the number of people who have gone DIY or had suspension replaced by people who haven't finished the job properly, and then taken advantage of the independant experts who post here to sort them out. I'm afraid you caught some of that frustration, and you didn't deserve it, sorry.
You mentioned that Austec did the original installation and setup. As far as I know Austec are well qualified to do this and I'm sure they did a decent job.
It is always useful to have an expert check it over and see whether it's all set up properly. As an owner we may only have experience of a handful of cars and it can be hard to judge how well it is set up, an expert who has done this job dozens or hundreds of times will find it easier how well the suspension is working.
The problem is that when you take the car to a professional, there's a natural and understandable tendancy to think of this as putting right the mistakes of the person who did the original work, and who took all the profit. I know that if I did this for a living I'd take a pretty dim view of people asking me to provide, in effect, free technical support for my competitors. If you go to a professional you can expect to pay quite a bit, and be prepared for lots of sucking of teeth and 'oh dear oh dear, I wouldn't have done it like that' etc. Similarly you may find the original supplier has their nose put out of joint when they find you've asked somebody else to put the car right. It may not be justified, but I think it's human nature.
To be constructive for a change, you might like to take yourself along to a few local TVRCC meets and take a few wedge owners round the block to get their reaction. If they all say it handles brilliantly then there can't be much wrong with it.
You mentioned that Austec did the original installation and setup. As far as I know Austec are well qualified to do this and I'm sure they did a decent job.
It is always useful to have an expert check it over and see whether it's all set up properly. As an owner we may only have experience of a handful of cars and it can be hard to judge how well it is set up, an expert who has done this job dozens or hundreds of times will find it easier how well the suspension is working.
The problem is that when you take the car to a professional, there's a natural and understandable tendancy to think of this as putting right the mistakes of the person who did the original work, and who took all the profit. I know that if I did this for a living I'd take a pretty dim view of people asking me to provide, in effect, free technical support for my competitors. If you go to a professional you can expect to pay quite a bit, and be prepared for lots of sucking of teeth and 'oh dear oh dear, I wouldn't have done it like that' etc. Similarly you may find the original supplier has their nose put out of joint when they find you've asked somebody else to put the car right. It may not be justified, but I think it's human nature.
To be constructive for a change, you might like to take yourself along to a few local TVRCC meets and take a few wedge owners round the block to get their reaction. If they all say it handles brilliantly then there can't be much wrong with it.
There is a difference between 'selling and fitting' and 'optimally configuring' - if you're willing to pay for it, they'll do it - I have found that its usually the ones who race their own car or work for a race team in the suspension department or who have at least 8 years experience behind them in that particular model etc. who are the dogs undercarriage.
Like Green said, it takes a good long time to get it right, but dont forget, what works for one car might not work for the other, with all the geometry and shite in independant suspension setups - you seriously need someone who KNOWS the nuts in this department to get it right at a one-off drive-in-drive-out job (even then it can take time if there are issues), otherwise expect a lot of testing and labour charges... (look at what racing teams pay to get theirs optimally configured when they modify their chassis etc!)
MV and Joospeed are at the top of my list in suspension setup... But the additional advantage with Joospeed has always been the fact that Nitron chose him many years ago to help with the development of the Nitron shocks for cerberas, plus he's an avid racer and looks after a few racers cars - to me that shows theres a history and deep understanding there and I can get that for free* as an added security when upgrading suspension.
There are many people out there who can supply you springs/dampers with a multitude of settings, but it would be like walking into halfords and picking up a pair of neon-washer lights...
( ok, maybe not so bad )
I also highly recommend myself, I've got a few spanners and a hammer, leave the car with me long enough - I'll sort it 
Like Green said, it takes a good long time to get it right, but dont forget, what works for one car might not work for the other, with all the geometry and shite in independant suspension setups - you seriously need someone who KNOWS the nuts in this department to get it right at a one-off drive-in-drive-out job (even then it can take time if there are issues), otherwise expect a lot of testing and labour charges... (look at what racing teams pay to get theirs optimally configured when they modify their chassis etc!)
MV and Joospeed are at the top of my list in suspension setup... But the additional advantage with Joospeed has always been the fact that Nitron chose him many years ago to help with the development of the Nitron shocks for cerberas, plus he's an avid racer and looks after a few racers cars - to me that shows theres a history and deep understanding there and I can get that for free* as an added security when upgrading suspension.
There are many people out there who can supply you springs/dampers with a multitude of settings, but it would be like walking into halfords and picking up a pair of neon-washer lights...
( ok, maybe not so bad ) I also highly recommend myself, I've got a few spanners and a hammer, leave the car with me long enough - I'll sort it
GreenV8S said:
I also think it is only common courtesy you let your specialist benefit from the margin on the dampers rather than have the money go to somebody who has done no more than stack the dampers on a shelf.
I don't see the logic in this. A suspension specialist may be good at that but not so good at buying/selling parts. Surely it's better to have a price for setting up suspension and a discounted price if you bought the parts there/repeat setting up.
trackcar said:
In my opinion, and i know I have an interest in this but .. I see no point in selling something like suspension components unless you have a knowledge of how those components will benefit the customer.
Well that's easy: old suspension knackered so new will benefit even if only for MoT.
trackcar said:
I would also advise as Peter says to let one outfit source, tailor and fit/set-up your car from start to finish as that way you know that you're getting someone fitting your kit who has an interest in making sure you get the best car every step of the way. It also cuts out the supplier blaming the fitter and vice versa if there's a later problem to be ironed out.
There's a few places like me who develop their own versions of dampers specifically to benefit a certain type of car. I for instance have nine versions of Nitron damper for the cerbera that i can call on, and any of those can be modified even further. And i don't care what anybody says, you *will* notice the difference between a generic kit and one specced specifically to your needs with a car set-up to suit you from someone who's developed those dampers themselves and knows intimately how they perform.
Do your research, pick the best total package, I suspect you'll find the best isn't a *pile it high, sell it cheap* outfit ...
in my opinion ..
That's fine in an ideal world but there are usually lots of exceptions. What if your car fails it's MoT and you're off to LeMans in three days? What if you just bought the car from someone who has just fitted the dampers from a pile 'em high company? What if there's more to the redcar/Austec story than he's willing to type?
IMHO factory settings should be freely available. After that as Peter says it can take years to tune your car to your preferences and modifications so why not check two or three companies? I don't think that someone should be tied to a company for the life of the damper just because they bought it there!
GreenV8S said:
On reflection I think I probably owe you an apology redcar, my response to your enquiry hasn't been as constructive as you deserve. I've been getting a bit fed up by the number of people who have gone DIY or had suspension replaced by people who haven't finished the job properly, and then taken advantage of the independant experts who post here to sort them out. I'm afraid you caught some of that frustration, and you didn't deserve it, sorry.
You mentioned that Austec did the original installation and setup. As far as I know Austec are well qualified to do this and I'm sure they did a decent job.
It is always useful to have an expert check it over and see whether it's all set up properly. As an owner we may only have experience of a handful of cars and it can be hard to judge how well it is set up, an expert who has done this job dozens or hundreds of times will find it easier how well the suspension is working.
The problem is that when you take the car to a professional, there's a natural and understandable tendancy to think of this as putting right the mistakes of the person who did the original work, and who took all the profit. I know that if I did this for a living I'd take a pretty dim view of people asking me to provide, in effect, free technical support for my competitors. If you go to a professional you can expect to pay quite a bit, and be prepared for lots of sucking of teeth and 'oh dear oh dear, I wouldn't have done it like that' etc. Similarly you may find the original supplier has their nose put out of joint when they find you've asked somebody else to put the car right. It may not be justified, but I think it's human nature.
To be constructive for a change, you might like to take yourself along to a few local TVRCC meets and take a few wedge owners round the block to get their reaction. If they all say it handles brilliantly then there can't be much wrong with it.
I do know how you feel I get fed up with so called experts interferring in my trade and then expecting free advice.
For the record I think Austec do & have done an outstanding job on my car on this aspect of work and everything they have done on it, I am one of there greatest fans.
I was just interested in someone in the know driving my car to get there opinoin on it and if need be offering advise for which I would expect to pay for.I think it handles well but I m not an expert I'm just one of those bloody perfectionists.
Martin
>> Edited by redcar on Saturday 6th August 18:38
>> Edited by redcar on Saturday 6th August 18:39
GreenV8S said:
It is always useful to have an expert check it over and see whether it's all set up properly. As an owner we may only have experience of a handful of cars and it can be hard to judge how well it is set up, an expert who has done this job dozens or hundreds of times will find it easier how well the suspension is working.
JR said:
Why not check two or three companies?
redcar said:
I was just interested in someone in the know driving my car to get there opinoin on it and if need be offering advise for which I would pay.I think it handles well I'm just one of those bloody perfectionists.
Can we have a peaceful beer now?
JR said:
It is always useful to have an expert check it over and see whether it's all set up properly. As an owner we may only have experience of a handful of cars and it can be hard to judge how well it is set up, an expert who has done this job dozens or hundreds of times will find it easier how well the suspension is working.
JR said:
Why not check two or three companies?
redcar said:
I was just interested in someone in the know driving my car to get there opinoin on it and if need be offering advise for which I would pay.I think it handles well I'm just one of those bloody perfectionists.
Can we have a peaceful beer now?
I almost started a war then. time as you say for a
JR said:
IMHO factory settings should be freely available. After that as Peter says it can take years to tune your car to your preferences and modifications so why not check two or three companies? I don't think that someone should be tied to a company for the life of the damper just because they bought it there!
I take issue with you on this point.
Avo,Gaz and the other budget shock absorber companies list hundreds of different shocks and whilst they can make the shocks to fit the various cars, they very often have done minimal testing, so no factory settings are available.
If I want to find the best spring rates and basic settings for a Tuscan, I have to pay somebody like Jools, Guglielmi or Warren at Topcats to do the testing for me and its time consuming and expensive but I'm doing it because I have to.
I don't blame the suspension experts for witholding data because they have paid for it in time and effort, if I wish to compete in the marketplace I have to pay for the same tests.
bugsy said:
IMHO factory settings should be freely available. After that as Peter says it can take years to tune your car to your preferences and modifications so why not check two or three companies?
I take issue with you on this point.
Avo,Gaz and the other budget shock absorber companies list hundreds of different shocks.
If I want to find the best spring rates and basic settings for a Tuscan, I have to pay somebody like Jools, Guglielmi or Warren at Topcats to do the testing for me and its time consuming and expensive but I'm doing it because I have to.
I don't blame the suspension experts for witholding data because they have paid for it in time and effort, if I wish to compete in the marketplace I have to pay for the same tests.
I think that there's a mis-understanding here. I meant toe-in camber etc. for the basic OEM set up. For individual cars you may want to alter that to suit you and if you have non-standard components then further alterations will be best.
Of course which spring rates and damper settings you use/sell are up to you but as you know even they are not the full story (you need to know the settings toe-in etc. that work best for your springs and dampers and your driving style.) That's what makes people like trackcar so useful but his exact set-up for any one car will probably only suit that owner. If I then buy that car I'd like a choice as to who to go to have it set up to suit me with out being tied to TC, even though he is convenientish for me.
Exactly
I agree with your point but I would have thought that the basic settings were readily available, I do however know that there are only a few guys who I would trust to do a proper job on the Geo/corner weighting on a Tiv and I include Jools on the list, along with Warren at Topcats and Steve Guglielmi, I hope the list grows but don't hold your breath.
I agree with your point but I would have thought that the basic settings were readily available, I do however know that there are only a few guys who I would trust to do a proper job on the Geo/corner weighting on a Tiv and I include Jools on the list, along with Warren at Topcats and Steve Guglielmi, I hope the list grows but don't hold your breath.
Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff