Changing to upgraded starter motor.
Discussion
I was getting the "click of death", where you here a relay click but nothing else happens. It was intermittent but as ever, better to fix than spend time embarrassed when it stops being intermittent (which, according to the law of sod, will always be at the most inconvenient time),
No great science to it, the problem was either earthing or the starter motor/solenoid. I know the uprated starters bring a noticeable difference so ordered one from Powers performance to swap anyway - no point having half the engine bay stripped and then not have the parts.
The problem is (as is well documented elsewhere) the uprated starters a) are longer by about an inch and b) the uprated starters don't have the studs to affix the combined lower airbox/100amp fuse/clutch bleed nipple bracket. To help anyone else I've added some pictures here of how I resolved it - it really isn't difficult, the whole exercise took about 4 hours which included thinking time. the usual caveats apply - this is how I did it, you do this at your own risk. You'll need 13mm and 10m sockets and an extension, a range of allen keys (I use 3/8 allen sockets which are far more effective) and 7mm, 10mm,13mm, 14mm and 15mm spanners. Also have a good worklight/torch and a voltmeter.
1) Disconnect the battery. Do not even think of starting until you have done this. Remove the battery access panel from behind the passenger side front wheel and disconnect the negative connector from the terminal and move it aside so it can't flop back and make a connection.
2) remove the upper airbox - unclip the air sensor connector on top of the cover, remove two cap head bolts going into the throttle bodies, two over centre clips on the outside and one in the inside (access this from the front like James Herriott up a cows a**e). Remove the oil breather hose from the front then pull the cover away from the throttle bodies (make sure it is off the rear ones) and slide forwards - this is a faff but it will come with a bit of jiggling. be careful, there is another small hose at the rear, remove when you can see the rear of the box. there is another small hose to the front of the cover, I left it in place and just rotated the cover out of the way. Remove the airfilter.
3) remove the lower airbox. Two 10mm nuts/setscrews at the rear and then one horizontal 10mm setscrew attaching the airbox to the alternator (note the position of this against the adjustment slot to put it back later). Lift up the lower airbox away from the feed tube and place aside.
4) Now clean the earth (optional, but if you're this far in, why not?). It is located at the top of the offside engine bracket underneath the alternator held in with a cap head setscrew. To get access move the oil pressure sensor by removing two screws connecting it to the body, and then move it aside leaving the oil and electrical connections in place. Undo the cap head bolt (in blue) and use a file and/or abrasives to clean up the earth loop on the cable. Then reconnect the earth and make sure it is tight. (note, the black and red item on the left in the picture is my headtorch! You won't see this)
5) You can now see the bracket on the back of the starter motor. Disconnect clutch bleed nipple (14mm and 15mm spanners) first, then the fuse housing (two cap head setscrews), then use a 7mm spanner to move the bracket from the starter motor (in blue). Note the orientation of the bracket and the airbox mounting extension.
6) remove the coil pack (4 cap head setscrews), disconnect the electrical connector on the bottom and place below the scuttle (below you left elbow) - no need to remove the ignition cables.
7) Check the power cable at the starter motor to ensure there is no 12V feed, then disconnect the power cables and sense cable from the starter . Now remove the old starter motor by taking out two cap head bolts. You will see two studs that mounted the bracket which don't exist on the new starter motor, this has long bolts that travel through the black body to the aluminium cap assembly.
8) Modify the bracket by a) slotting the two holes that were used to mount it in the old starter. Slot these at the same diameter as the holes, but at 90 degrees to each other (in the picture I was still filing the slots down to the right width). b) the lower fuse mounting rivnut mounting will foul the starter motor - remove it and drill a new hole that won't foul (you'll use a nut and bolt in that hole) c) remove the airbox extension bracket, add two longer setscrews that allow it to be mounted about an inch or so back from the rear face of the bracket with pair of nuts.
Mount the bracket on the new motor by loosening (but not removing) the two bolts on the starter motor and sliding the bracket in. Tighten the bolts.
9) install the new motor and re-connect the power and sense cables. Re-install the coil pack remembering to connect the input cable on the bottom.
10) install the clutch bleed nipple to the bracket. Connect the fuse block to the bracket. Bolt the airbox extension to the extended studs.
11) Re-install then lower airbox (you will need to trial fit to adjust the bracket at the right place on the studs), put the filter back, making sure it is seated on the lip all the wat around, then re-install the upper airbox remembering the small hose at the back and adding pins or cable ties to the outside over centre clips.
No great science to it, the problem was either earthing or the starter motor/solenoid. I know the uprated starters bring a noticeable difference so ordered one from Powers performance to swap anyway - no point having half the engine bay stripped and then not have the parts.
The problem is (as is well documented elsewhere) the uprated starters a) are longer by about an inch and b) the uprated starters don't have the studs to affix the combined lower airbox/100amp fuse/clutch bleed nipple bracket. To help anyone else I've added some pictures here of how I resolved it - it really isn't difficult, the whole exercise took about 4 hours which included thinking time. the usual caveats apply - this is how I did it, you do this at your own risk. You'll need 13mm and 10m sockets and an extension, a range of allen keys (I use 3/8 allen sockets which are far more effective) and 7mm, 10mm,13mm, 14mm and 15mm spanners. Also have a good worklight/torch and a voltmeter.
1) Disconnect the battery. Do not even think of starting until you have done this. Remove the battery access panel from behind the passenger side front wheel and disconnect the negative connector from the terminal and move it aside so it can't flop back and make a connection.
2) remove the upper airbox - unclip the air sensor connector on top of the cover, remove two cap head bolts going into the throttle bodies, two over centre clips on the outside and one in the inside (access this from the front like James Herriott up a cows a**e). Remove the oil breather hose from the front then pull the cover away from the throttle bodies (make sure it is off the rear ones) and slide forwards - this is a faff but it will come with a bit of jiggling. be careful, there is another small hose at the rear, remove when you can see the rear of the box. there is another small hose to the front of the cover, I left it in place and just rotated the cover out of the way. Remove the airfilter.
3) remove the lower airbox. Two 10mm nuts/setscrews at the rear and then one horizontal 10mm setscrew attaching the airbox to the alternator (note the position of this against the adjustment slot to put it back later). Lift up the lower airbox away from the feed tube and place aside.
4) Now clean the earth (optional, but if you're this far in, why not?). It is located at the top of the offside engine bracket underneath the alternator held in with a cap head setscrew. To get access move the oil pressure sensor by removing two screws connecting it to the body, and then move it aside leaving the oil and electrical connections in place. Undo the cap head bolt (in blue) and use a file and/or abrasives to clean up the earth loop on the cable. Then reconnect the earth and make sure it is tight. (note, the black and red item on the left in the picture is my headtorch! You won't see this)
5) You can now see the bracket on the back of the starter motor. Disconnect clutch bleed nipple (14mm and 15mm spanners) first, then the fuse housing (two cap head setscrews), then use a 7mm spanner to move the bracket from the starter motor (in blue). Note the orientation of the bracket and the airbox mounting extension.
6) remove the coil pack (4 cap head setscrews), disconnect the electrical connector on the bottom and place below the scuttle (below you left elbow) - no need to remove the ignition cables.
7) Check the power cable at the starter motor to ensure there is no 12V feed, then disconnect the power cables and sense cable from the starter . Now remove the old starter motor by taking out two cap head bolts. You will see two studs that mounted the bracket which don't exist on the new starter motor, this has long bolts that travel through the black body to the aluminium cap assembly.
8) Modify the bracket by a) slotting the two holes that were used to mount it in the old starter. Slot these at the same diameter as the holes, but at 90 degrees to each other (in the picture I was still filing the slots down to the right width). b) the lower fuse mounting rivnut mounting will foul the starter motor - remove it and drill a new hole that won't foul (you'll use a nut and bolt in that hole) c) remove the airbox extension bracket, add two longer setscrews that allow it to be mounted about an inch or so back from the rear face of the bracket with pair of nuts.
Mount the bracket on the new motor by loosening (but not removing) the two bolts on the starter motor and sliding the bracket in. Tighten the bolts.
9) install the new motor and re-connect the power and sense cables. Re-install the coil pack remembering to connect the input cable on the bottom.
10) install the clutch bleed nipple to the bracket. Connect the fuse block to the bracket. Bolt the airbox extension to the extended studs.
11) Re-install then lower airbox (you will need to trial fit to adjust the bracket at the right place on the studs), put the filter back, making sure it is seated on the lip all the wat around, then re-install the upper airbox remembering the small hose at the back and adding pins or cable ties to the outside over centre clips.
Perhaps am not understanding the method used and if so ignore me
Pretty sure that there is a big problem with the job and hoping to save you the price of another new starter motor
The original starter motor through bolts (studs) should have had spacers on the ends of them held on with nuts
The spacers ensure that the rear bracket isn't in contact with the commutator end shield apart from where it fastens to the spacers
Without the spacers, the through bolts (studs) will not tighten up correctly at the 2 points where they go through the commutator end shield, the bracket will have been forced against the inner of the commutator end shield or the screws that hold the small cover over the armature shaft. There could also be an unwanted load being applied to the end of the armature
There's also now a shorter length of thread entering the drive end shield and this could be a problem
Over a short period of usage with so much torque on the above incorrectly assembled commutator end bracket both drive end and commutator end brackets plus barrel will work loose
Am I missing something?
Pretty sure that there is a big problem with the job and hoping to save you the price of another new starter motor
The original starter motor through bolts (studs) should have had spacers on the ends of them held on with nuts
The spacers ensure that the rear bracket isn't in contact with the commutator end shield apart from where it fastens to the spacers
Without the spacers, the through bolts (studs) will not tighten up correctly at the 2 points where they go through the commutator end shield, the bracket will have been forced against the inner of the commutator end shield or the screws that hold the small cover over the armature shaft. There could also be an unwanted load being applied to the end of the armature
There's also now a shorter length of thread entering the drive end shield and this could be a problem
Over a short period of usage with so much torque on the above incorrectly assembled commutator end bracket both drive end and commutator end brackets plus barrel will work loose
Am I missing something?
Hi Polly
I had a good look at this as I made the changes, and perhaps only time will tell, however:
- The through bolts had several threads showing bare beyond the aluminium end cap (they are drilled through, not a blind hole). After adding the brackets they are still showing thread (just) so there is no less strength there.
- The plate at the bracket end a single moulded piece of metal, with a bearing cap piece held separately, not touched by the bracket. The fact that the through bolts are tight is keeping the moulded panel in the same pilace that it was in relation to everything else. In effect the clamping force is now spread across the rim at the end rather than where the setscrew heads originally sat but the motor is still clamped.
- The standoffs on the original motor seem to have more to do with leaving depth for the the fuse rivnuts than anything else. The same mechanical clamping could have been achieved with a washer if you think about it as there is only the rim to clear (the bearing cover screws are recessed)
I'll live with it and see - as I said, no-one needs to follow my route, and at least there are now pictures so everyone can understand the problem.
J
I had a good look at this as I made the changes, and perhaps only time will tell, however:
- The through bolts had several threads showing bare beyond the aluminium end cap (they are drilled through, not a blind hole). After adding the brackets they are still showing thread (just) so there is no less strength there.
- The plate at the bracket end a single moulded piece of metal, with a bearing cap piece held separately, not touched by the bracket. The fact that the through bolts are tight is keeping the moulded panel in the same pilace that it was in relation to everything else. In effect the clamping force is now spread across the rim at the end rather than where the setscrew heads originally sat but the motor is still clamped.
- The standoffs on the original motor seem to have more to do with leaving depth for the the fuse rivnuts than anything else. The same mechanical clamping could have been achieved with a washer if you think about it as there is only the rim to clear (the bearing cover screws are recessed)
I'll live with it and see - as I said, no-one needs to follow my route, and at least there are now pictures so everyone can understand the problem.
J
Hello Konrod
Apart from it being impossible to prove how much of an area is now clamped
The bracket is now forced against some of the raised painted inner areas of the commutator end shield and there is no possibility of locking it where the faces meet
The end shield is no longer bolted down to the barrel at its outer edge where the through bolts should be very tight and locked with spring or star washers
There is also now a gap between the rear face of the bracket and the face of the end shield where the through bolts are located
Washers or spacers used in conjunction with spring or star washers to move the bracket off the end shield are going to make a very big difference, Loctite on the through bolt threads will also help
Anyway - Nice modification
Konrod said:
The through bolts had several threads showing bare beyond the aluminium end cap (they are drilled through, not a blind hole). After adding the brackets they are still showing thread (just) so there is no less strength there
Very good then, am wondering if the original starter through bolts with spacers are long enough to swap overKonrod said:
In effect the clamping force is now spread across the rim at the end rather than where the setscrew heads originally sat but the motor is still clamped.
And there lies the problemApart from it being impossible to prove how much of an area is now clamped
The bracket is now forced against some of the raised painted inner areas of the commutator end shield and there is no possibility of locking it where the faces meet
The end shield is no longer bolted down to the barrel at its outer edge where the through bolts should be very tight and locked with spring or star washers
There is also now a gap between the rear face of the bracket and the face of the end shield where the through bolts are located
Konrod said:
The same mechanical clamping could have been achieved with a washer if you think about it as there is only the rim to clear (the bearing cover screws are recessed)
Agreed, it's a simple solution with big gains to be madeWashers or spacers used in conjunction with spring or star washers to move the bracket off the end shield are going to make a very big difference, Loctite on the through bolt threads will also help
Anyway - Nice modification
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