Are the new rules working?
Discussion
Lots of overtaking during the Imola sprint. It was often said DRS was too powerful.
Sunday was the inverse. All of a sudden nobody mentioned the "new rules are working", " the cars are easier to follow".
I think FP1 appearing to be meaningless played its part for the sprint race spectacle as well as tyres conditions and strategy.
Can it just be explained by single dry line at Imola or have the new rules been overhyped?
Sunday was the inverse. All of a sudden nobody mentioned the "new rules are working", " the cars are easier to follow".
I think FP1 appearing to be meaningless played its part for the sprint race spectacle as well as tyres conditions and strategy.
Can it just be explained by single dry line at Imola or have the new rules been overhyped?
I think the fact that several cars were able to keep within 1 second of each other for 15+ laps without destroying their tyres or having to back out of it proves that they can follow much better than before.
The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
A prime example of the rules working to allow for the cars to follow better would be the Albon/Gasly/Hamilton tussle and how long that lasted without any tyre complaints or having to drop back out of the dirty air.
The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
A prime example of the rules working to allow for the cars to follow better would be the Albon/Gasly/Hamilton tussle and how long that lasted without any tyre complaints or having to drop back out of the dirty air.
entropy said:
Lots of overtaking during the Imola sprint. It was often said DRS was too powerful.
Sunday was the inverse. All of a sudden nobody mentioned the "new rules are working", " the cars are easier to follow".
I think FP1 appearing to be meaningless played its part for the sprint race spectacle as well as tyres conditions and strategy.
Can it just be explained by single dry line at Imola or have the new rules been overhyped?
That was literally stated at least a dozen times. Sunday was the inverse. All of a sudden nobody mentioned the "new rules are working", " the cars are easier to follow".
I think FP1 appearing to be meaningless played its part for the sprint race spectacle as well as tyres conditions and strategy.
Can it just be explained by single dry line at Imola or have the new rules been overhyped?
The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
TypeRTim said:
I think the fact that several cars were able to keep within 1 second of each other for 15+ laps without destroying their tyres or having to back out of it proves that they can follow much better than before.
The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
Even in the narrow track, grooved tyre era I don't remember Imola being a circuit that leant itself to passing.The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
It certainly appears from watching the races that the rules are working and it is possible to follow closely. Once we get through Azerbaijan that will give 6 good races of data +Monaco (which has its own problems) + Miami (For which there is no precedent.). The big brains and super computers available to F1 can then crunch all the timing data and see how close cars are to one another during the races compared to historic norms.
At the moment I definitely think that they should turn DRS off for a number of races in the second half of the season to see what happens. There will definitely be less passing - which will present a marketing challenge for F1 - but it will be 'real' passing. All the time DRS is available it will be where the majority of the passing is done simply because the risk is less.
realjv said:
TypeRTim said:
I think the fact that several cars were able to keep within 1 second of each other for 15+ laps without destroying their tyres or having to back out of it proves that they can follow much better than before.
The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
Even in the narrow track, grooved tyre era I don't remember Imola being a circuit that leant itself to passing.The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
It certainly appears from watching the races that the rules are working and it is possible to follow closely. Once we get through Azerbaijan that will give 6 good races of data +Monaco (which has its own problems) + Miami (For which there is no precedent.). The big brains and super computers available to F1 can then crunch all the timing data and see how close cars are to one another during the races compared to historic norms.
At the moment I definitely think that they should turn DRS off for a number of races in the second half of the season to see what happens. There will definitely be less passing - which will present a marketing challenge for F1 - but it will be 'real' passing. All the time DRS is available it will be where the majority of the passing is done simply because the risk is less.
Following closer allows you the opportunity to attempt the pass, but doesn't get you passed!
realjv said:
At the moment I definitely think that they should turn DRS off for a number of races in the second half of the season to see what happens. There will definitely be less passing - which will present a marketing challenge for F1 - but it will be 'real' passing. All the time DRS is available it will be where the majority of the passing is done simply because the risk is less.
Ross Brawn said last year that he expected expected to keep DRS to start with and then reduce it over time once the new rules proved themselves.sociopath said:
That was literally stated at least a dozen times.
The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
Crofty banging on about how we need DRS and "this is what would happen if we didn't have DRS", then had to try and save face when nothing changed when DRS was enabled with some bullsThe sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
t about "Atleast the cars can get closer" 
If it was a dry weekend, maybe we would have seen some more moves in the braking zone but it was still pretty damp off line. Sending one down the inside into the chicane would never have worked.
sociopath said:
That was literally stated at least a dozen times.
The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
Sainz was bang on with that comment. As are you with your observation of the Sky desperation to have Hamilton overtake. Which was great irony when he couldn't get past and Nico Rosberg joking here tries Hamilton on Gasly for the 20th time. The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
Lewis had a shocker of a race, George making Lewis look very average yesterday, i note there was barely a congratulations to George for 4th but a heartfelt apology for the car to Lewis. Pretty low from Toto that i thought.
Mostly yes, is the answer. The cars can now follow each other closely without killing their tyres or overheating, which was the main aim of the new regulations.
IMHO they’re too big and heavy, which was obvious at an old-school narrow circuit yesterday, where the one good overtaking spot was wet offline for most of the race.
A few teams are still struggling with the porpoising issue, but they’ll get there sooner or later with that as it’s a known phenomenon. Ironically, the teams most affected are 1st and 3rd in the championship!
Overall, Ross Brawn and his team can be pretty damn happy with the job they did on the technical regulation set.
IMHO they’re too big and heavy, which was obvious at an old-school narrow circuit yesterday, where the one good overtaking spot was wet offline for most of the race.
A few teams are still struggling with the porpoising issue, but they’ll get there sooner or later with that as it’s a known phenomenon. Ironically, the teams most affected are 1st and 3rd in the championship!
Overall, Ross Brawn and his team can be pretty damn happy with the job they did on the technical regulation set.
PaulW100 said:
sociopath said:
That was literally stated at least a dozen times.
The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
Sainz was bang on with that comment. As are you with your observation of the Sky desperation to have Hamilton overtake. Which was great irony when he couldn't get past and Nico Rosberg joking here tries Hamilton on Gasly for the 20th time. The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
Lewis had a shocker of a race, George making Lewis look very average yesterday, i note there was barely a congratulations to George for 4th but a heartfelt apology for the car to Lewis. Pretty low from Toto that i thought.
Also the comments of "Lewis is not having a great race... But let's talk about George and how fantastic he's doing!"
I think Brawn's aim is to gradually shrink the cars and get them back to a sensible size and weight. He's said DRS is currently a necessary evil, but one which he hopes will become less relevant as the rules evolve.
It pains me to say this but I think the older circuits are the weak link with the new regs.
Imola has a singular optimal line so to make a move into one corner can mean you're a sitting duck on the next. In the past the you had a wider diversity in terms of how a car behaved, this was fine but the cars today all operate within a very narrow window from one another. The newer circuits offer more choice of line - but at the expense of character.
Imola has a singular optimal line so to make a move into one corner can mean you're a sitting duck on the next. In the past the you had a wider diversity in terms of how a car behaved, this was fine but the cars today all operate within a very narrow window from one another. The newer circuits offer more choice of line - but at the expense of character.
I think Brawn and his boffins have messed it up a bit. Yes the cars are nose to tail easier but that bouncing is stupid and a characteristic of ground effect it seems.
If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
I think George , honest as ever ,has said he is getting pain in his chest and back and he is young and
in top shape.
Cars all need to be set a minimum gap to the track or whatever solves it.
Due to all the fancy gubbins being stripped off the cars its probably harder to do any other way.
If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
I think George , honest as ever ,has said he is getting pain in his chest and back and he is young and
in top shape.
Cars all need to be set a minimum gap to the track or whatever solves it.
Due to all the fancy gubbins being stripped off the cars its probably harder to do any other way.
Fundoreen said:
I think Brawn and his boffins have messed it up a bit. Yes the cars are nose to tail easier but that bouncing is stupid and a characteristic of ground effect it seems.
If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
I think George , honest as ever ,has said he is getting pain in his chest and back and he is young and
in top shape.
Cars all need to be set a minimum gap to the track or whatever solves it.
Due to all the fancy gubbins being stripped off the cars its probably harder to do any other way.
if you bought a Ferrari road car they would be allowed to test it before putting it into production, a massive contributory factor to the car issues is the testing ban. IMHO they should have been allowed to test and develop these new cars.If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
I think George , honest as ever ,has said he is getting pain in his chest and back and he is young and
in top shape.
Cars all need to be set a minimum gap to the track or whatever solves it.
Due to all the fancy gubbins being stripped off the cars its probably harder to do any other way.
Adrian W said:
Fundoreen said:
I think Brawn and his boffins have messed it up a bit. Yes the cars are nose to tail easier but that bouncing is stupid and a characteristic of ground effect it seems.
If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
I think George , honest as ever ,has said he is getting pain in his chest and back and he is young and
in top shape.
Cars all need to be set a minimum gap to the track or whatever solves it.
Due to all the fancy gubbins being stripped off the cars its probably harder to do any other way.
if you bought a Ferrari road car they would be allowed to test it before putting it into production, a massive contributory factor to the car issues is the testing ban. IMHO they should have been allowed to test and develop these new cars.If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
I think George , honest as ever ,has said he is getting pain in his chest and back and he is young and
in top shape.
Cars all need to be set a minimum gap to the track or whatever solves it.
Due to all the fancy gubbins being stripped off the cars its probably harder to do any other way.
The rules already stipulate minimum / maximum ride height as far as I'm aware. It's up to the teams and their designers to optimise their cars.
As James Allsion said "Some will get it very right, some will get it very wrong". It's the nature of the sport.
mw88 said:
sociopath said:
That was literally stated at least a dozen times.
The sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
Crofty banging on about how we need DRS and "this is what would happen if we didn't have DRS", then had to try and save face when nothing changed when DRS was enabled with some bullsThe sky commentary was also banging on about DRS just because they wanted Hamilton to be able to get past everyone, if he'd been at the front of the queue I suspect they'd have been much quieter.
I think it was Sainz that said DRS wasn't turned on earlier, in his view, because of what happened with Russell and Bottas in the rain last year.
t about "Atleast the cars can get closer" If it was a dry weekend, maybe we would have seen some more moves in the braking zone but it was still pretty damp off line. Sending one down the inside into the chicane would never have worked.
Fundoreen said:
If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
Some are but most are most are definitely younger than 70. IIRC, the average age of a Ferrari customer is 42.StevieBee said:
Fundoreen said:
If I brought an expensive ferrari/mercedes/alpine/other road car and it bounced up and down due to its F1 breeding I would think they would be in trouble. Most of ther owners are 70+ year olds so it would kill them.
Some are but most are most are definitely younger than 70. IIRC, the average age of a Ferrari customer is 42.I have tried to find out figures that would support this, but I have been unsuccessful.
I am trying to find the number of on-track overtakes (not in the pits etc) by race, 2022 versus others years. Would anyone know if this information was available?
I think this would be a fair representation on if the new rules are working. Personally, I think we are seeing a lot more on track over takes this year than any other recent years (however that might be just be my interpretation).
I am trying to find the number of on-track overtakes (not in the pits etc) by race, 2022 versus others years. Would anyone know if this information was available?
I think this would be a fair representation on if the new rules are working. Personally, I think we are seeing a lot more on track over takes this year than any other recent years (however that might be just be my interpretation).
TypeRTim said:
I think the fact that several cars were able to keep within 1 second of each other for 15+ laps without destroying their tyres or having to back out of it proves that they can follow much better than before.
The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
A prime example of the rules working to allow for the cars to follow better would be the Albon/Gasly/Hamilton tussle and how long that lasted without any tyre complaints or having to drop back out of the dirty air.
The conditions were cool/cold so you wouldn't be worrying about overheating the tyres.The real issue is that the cars are so damn big and Imola is so narrow that there are very few places that the cars can safely get side by side. Added to which the main opportunity for overtakes in dry conditions these days are either DRS assisted on the straights or in to heavy braking zones, of which Imola has few!
A prime example of the rules working to allow for the cars to follow better would be the Albon/Gasly/Hamilton tussle and how long that lasted without any tyre complaints or having to drop back out of the dirty air.
Also, what's not to say Pirelli have made better tyres and overheating isn't as bad as previous years? Nobody has made that line of argument. Sky are so desperate to sell the sport and get more/retain viewers (and just as BBC in 2009 regs).
If the rules were working then there shouldn't be a reliance on DRS because the cars at least be able to be close enough to mount an attack without DRS.
Or is it because its Imola? Regardless of the length and and width of F1 cars over the years the racing was never the same after 1994. Previously, the final chicane to Tosa generated slipstreaming opportunities whereas now it has been emasculated by IMHO two needless chicanes when one will do.
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