Afghanistan tragedy

[Sam2022]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-taliban-sto...

Seemingly the Taliban have re banned schools for girls.

And rumour depending on where you read it, they are going house to house for anyone pro old government that worked with foreign nations.

Sleep Joe only just released half the frozen billions plus siphoned off half. Perhaps the bearded zealots need reminding?

[bristolracer]

It's a lost cause, and nobody is going to touch it with a stty stick.
As long as the Taliban keep the terrorists out, we will all look the other way.

[vulture1]

The west is now preoccupied with the European war. There will be alot more of this sort of thing returning in problem areas of the world.

[Sam2022]

bristolracer said:

It's a lost cause, and nobody is going to touch it with a stty stick.
As long as the Taliban keep the terrorists out, we will all look the other way.

Is it the right thing? Keeping despots there? Ignorance is bliss suppose.

[Previous]

Sam2022 said:

Is it the right thing? Keeping despots there? Ignorance is bliss suppose.

Even if the long term benefits to the UK of removing them are supposedly worth the shorter term costs (debatable), we don't appear to have the resources to meet the short term costs of intervention anyway.

So ultimately, and it's a crappy way of looking at it, better off it happening all the way over there, than here. And whilst it stays 'over there', that'll remain so.

[mcdjl]

We tried occupying the country to do something about it. As much as it's rubbish for and in the opinion of a large portion of the population, if the remainder aren't willing to stand up to it what can we do? Invade again and occupy indefinitely? With holding money won't stop it happening, or at best delay the move so unfortunately there's realistically nothing we can do.

[ChocolateFrog]

Sam2022 said:

Perhaps the bearded zealots need reminding?

I don't think you'll drum up much enthusiasm to go back from those that have been.

It's done, leave them to it.

[Ian Geary]

mcdjl said:

We tried occupying the country to do something about it. As much as it's rubbish for and in the opinion of a large portion of the population, if the remainder aren't willing to stand up to it what can we do? Invade again and occupy indefinitely? With holding money won't stop it happening, or at best delay the move so unfortunately there's realistically nothing we can do.

Exactly.

If the country wanted to fight for Western style freedoms and govenrment, they had their chance, and declined.

Their country: they can run it how they want, imo.

Even though to me the fundamentalist approach taken in Afganistan is abhorrent, who am I to decide their religious views are "wrong"? Sounds a bit colonial to me.

I'd rather focus on the problems when that mindset starts to stake root in the UK.

[rxe]

mcdjl said:

We tried occupying the country to do something about it. As much as it's rubbish for and in the opinion of a large portion of the population, if the remainder aren't willing to stand up to it what can we do? Invade again and occupy indefinitely? With holding money won't stop it happening, or at best delay the move so unfortunately there's realistically nothing we can do.

The contrast with Ukraine is stark. They’re facing down a superpower, and winning. These god forsaken places aren’t willing to do the same for a bunch of fundamentalists - we’ve tried helping, far more than we’re doing in Ukraine, and every party there will stab you in the back when the time is right. Seal up the borders, let ‘em get on with it.

[MarkJS]

Ian Geary said:

mcdjl said:

We tried occupying the country to do something about it. As much as it's rubbish for and in the opinion of a large portion of the population, if the remainder aren't willing to stand up to it what can we do? Invade again and occupy indefinitely? With holding money won't stop it happening, or at best delay the move so unfortunately there's realistically nothing we can do.

Exactly.

If the country wanted to fight for Western style freedoms and govenrment, they had their chance, and declined.

Their country: they can run it how they want, imo.

Even though to me the fundamentalist approach taken in Afganistan is abhorrent, who am I to decide their religious views are "wrong"? Sounds a bit colonial to me.

I'd rather focus on the problems when that mindset starts to stake root in the UK.

This. It might be controversial, but many of these countries are best left alone. We have meddled in many countries and lost lives in doing so to achieve absolutely nothing when in reality, the majority of the inhabitants were fairly happy with the status quo - and then it’s actually worse than before after we disappear. I worked in Syria for a few years, and yes it was a ‘Police State’, but for the most part people were pretty happy.

Of course, the taliban are a set of tts, but Afghanistan has been a shambles for longer than I have been alive with various ‘world powers’ shambolically trying to get a grip of it and failing every single time. I’m afraid, the change needs to come within and if it doesn’t (which it won’t), just leave it alone.

[JagLover]

Ian Geary said:

Exactly.

If the country wanted to fight for Western style freedoms and govenrment, they had their chance, and declined.

Their country: they can run it how they want, imo.

Even though to me the fundamentalist approach taken in Afganistan is abhorrent, who am I to decide their religious views are "wrong"? Sounds a bit colonial to me.

I'd rather focus on the problems when that mindset starts to stake root in the UK.

Yep

and it isn't really the case of them refusing to fight for western style freedoms more that Afghanistan is one of the most fundamentalist counties in all of the Islamic world and the extremists have enough support to easily take over the country. The problem some have is that they think a few middle class activists and bloggers in Kabul represented the whole country.

You are very right that is a quasi-colonialist mindset that thinks we have the right to intervene to impose our values. That is what the empire became back in the day. It started as a commercial endeavour and then became imposing "civilisation" on the natives. The whole white man's burden attitude that still has a strong influence today.

[bloomen]

rxe said:

The contrast with Ukraine is stark. They’re facing down a superpower, and winning. These god forsaken places aren’t willing to do the same for a bunch of fundamentalists - we’ve tried helping, far more than we’re doing in Ukraine, and every party there will stab you in the back when the time is right. Seal up the borders, let ‘em get on with it.

One mistake the west made was to think of Afghanistan as a country when the locals do not. They think of their tribe. No one should've been surprised when the Afghan army melted into nothing when called upon. And most of it probably didn't exist in the first place.

You can't build a nation when its actual inhabitants have no interest in it. It's bizarre that it was even attempted in the first place.

What we shouldn't let up on is humanitarian aid. 'Punishing' the Taliban when it's the regular people who suffer doesn't seem constructive or clever and it empowers their case, but I've no idea how you get it into stomachs without corruption diverting much of it.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Ian Geary said:

Even though to me the fundamentalist approach taken in Afganistan is abhorrent, who am I to decide their religious views are "wrong"? Sounds a bit colonial to me.

I am quite happy to say their religious views are wrong. That should be taken as read by any decent human being. That's not to say we should get involved again, but I can't be doing with this "who are we to say" nonsense. The Taliban are s who believe utter bullst. There you go, I said it.

[anonymoususer]

rxe said:

mcdjl said:

We tried occupying the country to do something about it. As much as it's rubbish for and in the opinion of a large portion of the population, if the remainder aren't willing to stand up to it what can we do? Invade again and occupy indefinitely? With holding money won't stop it happening, or at best delay the move so unfortunately there's realistically nothing we can do.

The contrast with Ukraine is stark. They’re facing down a superpower, and winning. These god forsaken places aren’t willing to do the same for a bunch of fundamentalists - we’ve tried helping, far more than we’re doing in Ukraine, and every party there will stab you in the back when the time is right. Seal up the borders, let ‘em get on with it.

not a fan then ?

[glazbagun]

I do find it remarkable that we all thought Ukraine was done for but a month after facing an existential struggle and with western help it now looks like Russia has brought a knife to a gunfight.

Afghanistan was provided with all the arms they'd need and billions in aid over 20 years but ultimately didn't seem to think a nation was worth a fight and melted away.

I guess you can't put a price on morale.

[Sam2022]

MarkJS said:

Ian Geary said:

mcdjl said:

We tried occupying the country to do something about it. As much as it's rubbish for and in the opinion of a large portion of the population, if the remainder aren't willing to stand up to it what can we do? Invade again and occupy indefinitely? With holding money won't stop it happening, or at best delay the move so unfortunately there's realistically nothing we can do.

Exactly.

If the country wanted to fight for Western style freedoms and govenrment, they had their chance, and declined.

Their country: they can run it how they want, imo.

Even though to me the fundamentalist approach taken in Afganistan is abhorrent, who am I to decide their religious views are "wrong"? Sounds a bit colonial to me.

I'd rather focus on the problems when that mindset starts to stake root in the UK.

This. It might be controversial, but many of these countries are best left alone. We have meddled in many countries and lost lives in doing so to achieve absolutely nothing when in reality, the majority of the inhabitants were fairly happy with the status quo - and then it’s actually worse than before after we disappear. I worked in Syria for a few years, and yes it was a ‘Police State’, but for the most part people were pretty happy.

Of course, the taliban are a set of tts, but Afghanistan has been a shambles for longer than I have been alive with various ‘world powers’ shambolically trying to get a grip of it and failing every single time. I’m afraid, the change needs to come within and if it doesn’t (which it won’t), just leave it alone.

It doesn't surprise me with the callous attitudes. Many of the Afghans would disagree, least 50% of the population, i.e., the females and the other majority. Delusional to think anyone declined the freedoms of liberty, education and quality - suppose unless you think from the narrative "brown" people are innately anti-[sic].

You will find there was no one willing to make any tangible changes, a president (ex-world bank) and CEO that filled their pocked while their Western backers turned a blind eye. Change wasn't allowed to happen with rampant corruption, you can even read what the former U.S. ambassador who served as deputy U.N. representative for Afghanistan, U.S. counter-insurgency doctrine stressed the need for a local partner.

Trump then Biden succeeded to the taliban's demands. Lest not forget the taliban's headquarters in Qatar probably can see Al Udeid Air Base from the balcony.

[MarkJS]

Sam2022 said:

It doesn't surprise me with the callous attitudes. Many of the Afghans would disagree, least 50% of the population, i.e., the females and the other majority. Delusional to think anyone declined the freedoms of liberty, education and quality - suppose unless you think from the narrative "brown" people are innately anti-[sic].

You will find there was no one willing to make any tangible changes, a president (ex-world bank) and CEO that filled their pocked while their Western backers turned a blind eye. Change wasn't allowed to happen with rampant corruption, you can even read what the former U.S. ambassador who served as deputy U.N. representative for Afghanistan, U.S. counter-insurgency doctrine stressed the need for a local partner.

Trump then Biden succeeded to the taliban's demands. Lest not forget the taliban's headquarters in Qatar probably can see Al Udeid Air Base from the balcony.

If you’re inferring that I (and others) have a callous attitude, then I suggest you actually go to some of these places and look at the (much) bigger picture. I will kind of agree however, that when ‘we’ get involved, it’s only because we have a serious interest there. If you don’t agree with me/that, just take a look at Yemen.

[Ian Geary]

Sam2022 said:

It doesn't surprise me with the callous attitudes. Many of the Afghans would disagree, least 50% of the population, i.e., the females and the other majority. Delusional to think anyone declined the freedoms of liberty, education and quality - suppose unless you think from the narrative "brown" people are innately anti-[sic].

You will find there was no one willing to make any tangible changes, a president (ex-world bank) and CEO that filled their pocked while their Western backers turned a blind eye. Change wasn't allowed to happen with rampant corruption, you can even read what the former U.S. ambassador who served as deputy U.N. representative for Afghanistan, U.S. counter-insurgency doctrine stressed the need for a local partner.

Trump then Biden succeeded to the taliban's demands. Lest not forget the taliban's headquarters in Qatar probably can see Al Udeid Air Base from the balcony.

Realism might come across as callous to the idealistic.

You're the only one mentioning "brown" people, so I expect you are projecting there. "Anti-[sic]"? That doesn't even make sense, because no-one said anti-anything apart from you, so you can't quote it erroneously.

The Afgan people have declined those freedoms, by not resisting the Taliban, who made no secret about their pending policy choices.

Again, I don't think the west can carry the role any more of arbitrarily deciding how a country should be run, and spending our military's lives, and our GDP to fight against the tide, even if those choices don't align to how we would like it.

If it poses a real threat to our country's security, then the case is stronger.

So: callous? No, realist.

[Biggy Stardust]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I am quite happy to say their religious views are wrong. That should be taken as read by any decent human being. That's not to say we should get involved again, but I can't be doing with this "who are we to say" nonsense. The Taliban are s who believe utter bullst. There you go, I said it.

They don't tell us how to live our lives, we don't tell them how to live theirs. Bargain.

[poo at Paul's]

Blimey, who’d have thunk it.
In 2022, if yiu can’t trust a murdeorus, woman hating terrorist group s Neanderthals, who can yiu trust?