Discussion
It's been mentioned in some threads and have become rather confused.
I thought block-passing originally meant overtaking the car in front, stealing their line by chopping in front of them and hence the 'block' - which can be exaggerated by hesitating on the throttle. This would normally be a clean move with minimal contact, as would be in track bike racing (correct me if I'm wrong).
As demonstrated by Brundell:
https://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw?t=296
However F1 cars are now ludicrous barges and taking or stealing the racing line involves forcing drivers off the track.
Is there a place for the orthodox block-pass or has racing now progressed where its super aggressive that we now have the motocross interpretation?
IMO I dislike the latter and belongs in Touring Cars, and this is coming from someone who excused some of Schumi's antics.
I thought block-passing originally meant overtaking the car in front, stealing their line by chopping in front of them and hence the 'block' - which can be exaggerated by hesitating on the throttle. This would normally be a clean move with minimal contact, as would be in track bike racing (correct me if I'm wrong).
As demonstrated by Brundell:
https://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw?t=296
However F1 cars are now ludicrous barges and taking or stealing the racing line involves forcing drivers off the track.
Is there a place for the orthodox block-pass or has racing now progressed where its super aggressive that we now have the motocross interpretation?
IMO I dislike the latter and belongs in Touring Cars, and this is coming from someone who excused some of Schumi's antics.
A block pass is about overtaking and delaying the throttle at the apex to prevent a switchback. Nothing unsporting about it. It's racing.
Nige did it many times, not a hint of a complaint from fellow drivers. Done it myself many times in karting and sim racing.
E.g. https://youtu.be/V4Z9JOof_kE @ 4:20
Or https://youtu.be/NL9vr3svk-0 @ 4:30
Or https://youtu.be/NL9vr3svk-0 @ 3:25
Nige did it many times, not a hint of a complaint from fellow drivers. Done it myself many times in karting and sim racing.
E.g. https://youtu.be/V4Z9JOof_kE @ 4:20
Or https://youtu.be/NL9vr3svk-0 @ 4:30
Or https://youtu.be/NL9vr3svk-0 @ 3:25
Edited by mattikake on Saturday 29th January 01:40
An attempt at apex block pass is fine, it is the straight line and "carrying" block pass, with the overtaken car being unable to turn in that I have a problem with.
May as well do overtake in a 1992 1.2GS Nissan Micra, as it impossible to drive through a car that just carries you off with modulated braking...
May as well do overtake in a 1992 1.2GS Nissan Micra, as it impossible to drive through a car that just carries you off with modulated braking...
entropy said:
It's been mentioned in some threads and have become rather confused.
I thought block-passing originally meant overtaking the car in front, stealing their line by chopping in front of them and hence the 'block' - which can be exaggerated by hesitating on the throttle. This would normally be a clean move with minimal contact, as would be in track bike racing (correct me if I'm wrong).
As demonstrated by Brundell:
https://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw?t=296
However F1 cars are now ludicrous barges and taking or stealing the racing line involves forcing drivers off the track.
Is there a place for the orthodox block-pass or has racing now progressed where its super aggressive that we now have the motocross interpretation?
IMO I dislike the latter and belongs in Touring Cars, and this is coming from someone who excused some of Schumi's antics.
There is an obvious line between block passing and forcing another driver off the track and it seems to have been blurred. I don’t really understand why as it’s quite obvious but a lot of people don’t seem to be able to differentiate between them. You can stop a driver taking the optimal line by positioning your car correctly and even delay his throttle application, that’s just good car positioning. Braking so late and dive bombing the car you are trying to overtake has nowhere to go apart from abandoning the race track defined by the white lines isn’t block passing and isn’t ok. I thought block-passing originally meant overtaking the car in front, stealing their line by chopping in front of them and hence the 'block' - which can be exaggerated by hesitating on the throttle. This would normally be a clean move with minimal contact, as would be in track bike racing (correct me if I'm wrong).
As demonstrated by Brundell:
https://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw?t=296
However F1 cars are now ludicrous barges and taking or stealing the racing line involves forcing drivers off the track.
Is there a place for the orthodox block-pass or has racing now progressed where its super aggressive that we now have the motocross interpretation?
IMO I dislike the latter and belongs in Touring Cars, and this is coming from someone who excused some of Schumi's antics.
Carlososos said:
entropy said:
It's been mentioned in some threads and have become rather confused.
I thought block-passing originally meant overtaking the car in front, stealing their line by chopping in front of them and hence the 'block' - which can be exaggerated by hesitating on the throttle. This would normally be a clean move with minimal contact, as would be in track bike racing (correct me if I'm wrong).
As demonstrated by Brundell:
https://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw?t=296
However F1 cars are now ludicrous barges and taking or stealing the racing line involves forcing drivers off the track.
Is there a place for the orthodox block-pass or has racing now progressed where its super aggressive that we now have the motocross interpretation?
IMO I dislike the latter and belongs in Touring Cars, and this is coming from someone who excused some of Schumi's antics.
There is an obvious line between block passing and forcing another driver off the track and it seems to have been blurred. I don’t really understand why as it’s quite obvious but a lot of people don’t seem to be able to differentiate between them. You can stop a driver taking the optimal line by positioning your car correctly and even delay his throttle application, that’s just good car positioning. Braking so late and dive bombing the car you are trying to overtake has nowhere to go apart from abandoning the race track defined by the white lines isn’t block passing and isn’t ok. I thought block-passing originally meant overtaking the car in front, stealing their line by chopping in front of them and hence the 'block' - which can be exaggerated by hesitating on the throttle. This would normally be a clean move with minimal contact, as would be in track bike racing (correct me if I'm wrong).
As demonstrated by Brundell:
https://youtu.be/Koprlc1T4sw?t=296
However F1 cars are now ludicrous barges and taking or stealing the racing line involves forcing drivers off the track.
Is there a place for the orthodox block-pass or has racing now progressed where its super aggressive that we now have the motocross interpretation?
IMO I dislike the latter and belongs in Touring Cars, and this is coming from someone who excused some of Schumi's antics.
As to why the lines are blurred - I blame Max and his fanbase believing his s
t that being [sometimes] penalised for barging people off the track "is not formula 1". BS you self-entitled tosser. It was never part of formula 1.I sometimes think drivers and spectators forget about physics. The driver on the inside is always going to be compromised on exit speed so either go for the undercut or tuck in for the draft. The outer car shouldn't keep turning in and then say they were forced off track. If the inside car got to the apex first it's his corner. Of course on a non-F1 track it's a non-issue as if you try to play the "forced off track" card you're in the gravel. So much of the issues of F1 would be solved with gravel traps.
Block passes come from motocross, and they are very aggressive moves.
If you want to see some of the most overly aggressive riding around watch guys like Justin Barcia, Jason Anderson in supercross near enough every pass involves contact, it is OTT and unfair but within the rules largely.
the idea on bikes is that in MX there are lots of tight hairpin turns with an outside and inside line , usually rutted, so the idea is to nail your bike over the ruts and sort of block the other guy on the outside from turning to complete the bend or bounce him out of a rut so he loses traction and grip, it usually involves either trying to or contacting them or the front wheel to prevent any return pass also.
it can be done fairly, and can lead to fabulous to and fro racing, but some riders like the ones mentioned take it too far and literally try and take each other out.
Not easy in cars, but basically a dive inside with no effort made to really appreciate the other car could be called a block pass maybe, and in F1 Verstappen is easily the most obvious one who does it, perhaps the only one who does it so much, other drivers seem able to pass without doing it so much, so it must be a Max thing.
If you want to see some of the most overly aggressive riding around watch guys like Justin Barcia, Jason Anderson in supercross near enough every pass involves contact, it is OTT and unfair but within the rules largely.
the idea on bikes is that in MX there are lots of tight hairpin turns with an outside and inside line , usually rutted, so the idea is to nail your bike over the ruts and sort of block the other guy on the outside from turning to complete the bend or bounce him out of a rut so he loses traction and grip, it usually involves either trying to or contacting them or the front wheel to prevent any return pass also.
it can be done fairly, and can lead to fabulous to and fro racing, but some riders like the ones mentioned take it too far and literally try and take each other out.
Not easy in cars, but basically a dive inside with no effort made to really appreciate the other car could be called a block pass maybe, and in F1 Verstappen is easily the most obvious one who does it, perhaps the only one who does it so much, other drivers seem able to pass without doing it so much, so it must be a Max thing.
mattikake said:
A block pass is about overtaking and delaying the throttle at the apex to prevent a switchback. Nothing unsporting about it. It's racing.
[/footnote]
That's what I thought but some people think Max was performing a block on the opening laps of Abu Dhabi. More MotoX interpretation of a block-pass; Max - as per usual - looks like he's making no attempt to rotate at the apex but rather force Hamilton off the road.[/footnote]
JoelH said:
I sometimes think drivers and spectators forget about physics. The driver on the inside is always going to be compromised on exit speed so either go for the undercut or tuck in for the draft. The outer car shouldn't keep turning in and then say they were forced off track. If the inside car got to the apex first it's his corner. Of course on a non-F1 track it's a non-issue as if you try to play the "forced off track" card you're in the gravel. So much of the issues of F1 would be solved with gravel traps.
Works fine in junior categories and bikes on circuits as they're much nimbler.F1 cars are comically large these days. They go round tight bends more like barges.
Edited by entropy on Monday 31st January 14:01
JoelH said:
I sometimes think drivers and spectators forget about physics. The driver on the inside is always going to be compromised on exit speed so either go for the undercut or tuck in for the draft. The outer car shouldn't keep turning in and then say they were forced off track. If the inside car got to the apex first it's his corner. Of course on a non-F1 track it's a non-issue as if you try to play the "forced off track" card you're in the gravel. So much of the issues of F1 would be solved with gravel traps.
If the car on the inside can always just keep going all the way to the outside of the track before turning how can you ever pass them? The inside car can brake later because they're not actually trying to make the corner properly, so they'll normally pass the car on the outside and be first into the apex as a result. You can't outbrake someone and make the corner if they are only braking where they can just stay on the track themselves.thiscocks said:
You need to give us a clue as to whereabouts in the 2.5 hour film the block pass actually is?ffs, thought it cued it. Try: https://youtu.be/DzGfUP5LPZI?t=2493
thiscocks said:
ffs, thought it cued it. Try: https://youtu.be/DzGfUP5LPZI?t=2493
Yeah block pass. Some peoples version of a block pass is dive bombing someone while screaming banzai like a kamikaze pilot. just watched this MX video and yep, it's easy to see how the F1 "overtaking" angle is definitely a block-pass from Max.
This is a great video to watch for those with 5 minutes to spare, you can easily see the similarities from MX and the way Max drives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg9whTvcPIc&ab...
(I ride MX and anyone who rode like Justin in the above highlights reel would definitely "have an encounter" in the paddock afterwards).
This is a great video to watch for those with 5 minutes to spare, you can easily see the similarities from MX and the way Max drives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg9whTvcPIc&ab...
(I ride MX and anyone who rode like Justin in the above highlights reel would definitely "have an encounter" in the paddock afterwards).
hunter 66 said:
Lewis is a master at this , but big deal , used in club racing even , and badly here
Lewis is. Max is good but he often misses the apex by too much and crowds too straight to carry the other driver off, rather than making an effort to rotate. He then expects affirmation of how well he has done from the stewards. Sometimes he does it spectacularly well though - Jeddah restart for instance. PhilAsia said:
hunter 66 said:
Lewis is a master at this , but big deal , used in club racing even , and badly here
Lewis is. Max is good but he often misses the apex by too much and crowds too straight to carry the other driver off, rather than making an effort to rotate. He then expects affirmation of how well he has done from the stewards. Sometimes he does it spectacularly well though - Jeddah restart for instance. Any old muppet can throw a car up the inside and not care about the other driver. I literally see this from 5yo"s in sim lobbies everyday - and all fair racers hate it because it's basically cheating.
mattikake said:
PhilAsia said:
hunter 66 said:
Lewis is a master at this , but big deal , used in club racing even , and badly here
Lewis is. Max is good but he often misses the apex by too much and crowds too straight to carry the other driver off, rather than making an effort to rotate. He then expects affirmation of how well he has done from the stewards. Sometimes he does it spectacularly well though - Jeddah restart for instance. Any old muppet can throw a car up the inside and not care about the other driver. I literally see this from 5yo"s in sim lobbies everyday - and all fair racers hate it because it's basically cheating.
PhilAsia said:
i was being sensitive and tactful. He does get it right if others steer away from him though!
Lewis was only steering away at the end of last season, because of the championship position. He won’t be doing the same this year. Once the FIA have sorted out their race management and governance issues, driver standards will be next on the list. Lerclerc and Russell will be driving just like Max did last season, until they’re all told to stop. There’s going to be a lot of accidents in the next few races.
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