Pitting under safety car / vsc / red flag
Discussion
For some reason I've been thinking a lot recently about the advantages gained by cars which are able to pit under safety car and virtual safety car conditions and also the free tyre change people are allowed when under a red flag. For example in Abu Dhabi I believe the time loss for pitting under a VSC was 9 seconds, compared to 24 seconds in normal running.
I've seen some people suggest the pit lane should be closed to prevent this, but I don't think that's a great idea. There will be situations where a car will have run over debris from whatever incident has caused the incident, or perhaps minor crash damage that will require a visit to the pits. In these situations, all closing the pit lane would achieve is the creation of more safety cars.
So how about this as a solution. Under a safety car or VSC, you can make a pit stop. But much like when serving a penalty, the car can't be worked on for 10 seconds. This would remove the advantage, but still allow pitting if necessary without penalising the person pitting. And for red flag situations, if you decide to change your tires, you should be subject to a five place grid drop on the restart. This would be calculated from the first place, going backwards, so if everyone changes tyres, there would be no affect.
I think that these changes would remove some of what is perceived to be an unfair advantage given to some cars, but would still leave options for strategies. IE, swapping to softs under a red might mean you can make up the 5 place drop, or the remaining 2-4 second advantage of pitting under a safety car is still worth the gamble. But it would remove a lot of the lottery effect these events create.
I've seen some people suggest the pit lane should be closed to prevent this, but I don't think that's a great idea. There will be situations where a car will have run over debris from whatever incident has caused the incident, or perhaps minor crash damage that will require a visit to the pits. In these situations, all closing the pit lane would achieve is the creation of more safety cars.
So how about this as a solution. Under a safety car or VSC, you can make a pit stop. But much like when serving a penalty, the car can't be worked on for 10 seconds. This would remove the advantage, but still allow pitting if necessary without penalising the person pitting. And for red flag situations, if you decide to change your tires, you should be subject to a five place grid drop on the restart. This would be calculated from the first place, going backwards, so if everyone changes tyres, there would be no affect.
I think that these changes would remove some of what is perceived to be an unfair advantage given to some cars, but would still leave options for strategies. IE, swapping to softs under a red might mean you can make up the 5 place drop, or the remaining 2-4 second advantage of pitting under a safety car is still worth the gamble. But it would remove a lot of the lottery effect these events create.
I've always found it a bit strange that the safety car can get called out, and then at the same time half the pack will dive into the pits, which bearing in mind the number of cars and pit crew members in a relatively small space, is surely the complete opposite of "safe".
Personally I think there should be no pitting under these conditions. In some circumstances (Baku was one I think?) they closed the pit lane, so it's not without precedent. Maybe an exception could be made for an obvious puncture or damage, but with a 5-10 second holding penalty before work can take place.
I don't say this as a disgruntled LH fan, ultimately the World Championship was decided over 22 rounds. I say it as an F1 fan who's heart sinks every time a car nudges the barriers or a small piece of carbon fibre ends up on (or near) the track, as I know we're in for a load of gamesmanship, messing around with pit stops and no racing.
Personally I think there should be no pitting under these conditions. In some circumstances (Baku was one I think?) they closed the pit lane, so it's not without precedent. Maybe an exception could be made for an obvious puncture or damage, but with a 5-10 second holding penalty before work can take place.
I don't say this as a disgruntled LH fan, ultimately the World Championship was decided over 22 rounds. I say it as an F1 fan who's heart sinks every time a car nudges the barriers or a small piece of carbon fibre ends up on (or near) the track, as I know we're in for a load of gamesmanship, messing around with pit stops and no racing.
jimothyc said:
For some reason I've been thinking a lot recently about the advantages gained by cars which are able to pit under safety car and virtual safety car conditions and also the free tyre change people are allowed when under a red flag. For example in Abu Dhabi I believe the time loss for pitting under a VSC was 9 seconds, compared to 24 seconds in normal running.
I've seen some people suggest the pit lane should be closed to prevent this, but I don't think that's a great idea. There will be situations where a car will have run over debris from whatever incident has caused the incident, or perhaps minor crash damage that will require a visit to the pits. In these situations, all closing the pit lane would achieve is the creation of more safety cars.
So how about this as a solution. Under a safety car or VSC, you can make a pit stop. But much like when serving a penalty, the car can't be worked on for 10 seconds. This would remove the advantage, but still allow pitting if necessary without penalising the person pitting. And for red flag situations, if you decide to change your tires, you should be subject to a five place grid drop on the restart. This would be calculated from the first place, going backwards, so if everyone changes tyres, there would be no affect.
I think that these changes would remove some of what is perceived to be an unfair advantage given to some cars, but would still leave options for strategies. IE, swapping to softs under a red might mean you can make up the 5 place drop, or the remaining 2-4 second advantage of pitting under a safety car is still worth the gamble. But it would remove a lot of the lottery effect these events create.
The 10sec penalty might have some grounds, but it would get rather complicated and it's inevitable that at some circuits it would still be advantageous. I've seen some people suggest the pit lane should be closed to prevent this, but I don't think that's a great idea. There will be situations where a car will have run over debris from whatever incident has caused the incident, or perhaps minor crash damage that will require a visit to the pits. In these situations, all closing the pit lane would achieve is the creation of more safety cars.
So how about this as a solution. Under a safety car or VSC, you can make a pit stop. But much like when serving a penalty, the car can't be worked on for 10 seconds. This would remove the advantage, but still allow pitting if necessary without penalising the person pitting. And for red flag situations, if you decide to change your tires, you should be subject to a five place grid drop on the restart. This would be calculated from the first place, going backwards, so if everyone changes tyres, there would be no affect.
I think that these changes would remove some of what is perceived to be an unfair advantage given to some cars, but would still leave options for strategies. IE, swapping to softs under a red might mean you can make up the 5 place drop, or the remaining 2-4 second advantage of pitting under a safety car is still worth the gamble. But it would remove a lot of the lottery effect these events create.
Problem with closing the pitlane isn't just limited to "what about guys with damage", but it isn't really fixing anything. For any "unjust swap for position" you would avoid by closing it, you would create a bunch more. Strategies would all become very, very boring too - with the contra "run long" strategy being too risky, the undercut is already generally the advantage and this would just seal it completely.
Feels like the current setup is the lesser of all evils, tbh.
Closing the pit lane during a safety car doesn’t just affect those with damage. If the SC comes out only a few laps before a car plans to pit, forcing them to wait until after the SC finishes massively disadvantages them. What might have been only a few places lost, will actually result in them ending up 15-20 seconds behind the car in last. Same goes for a red flag.
The primary purpose of the VSC and Safety Car is to temporarily neutralise racing to enable the safe recovery of a stranded vehicle or deal with some other hazard. Any benefit of pitting under either tends to ebb and flow over the course of a season.
Personally, I'd like to see VSC used more instead of the Safety Car as it does the same job but without unduly impacting the race. I would not permit pit stops within the first five laps under either except in the case puncture or similar - with drivers facing time penalties if no issue is proven.
I've never liked the idea of the Safety Car being used as some kind or re-set and would ban the overtaking of lapped cars.
Personally, I'd like to see VSC used more instead of the Safety Car as it does the same job but without unduly impacting the race. I would not permit pit stops within the first five laps under either except in the case puncture or similar - with drivers facing time penalties if no issue is proven.
I've never liked the idea of the Safety Car being used as some kind or re-set and would ban the overtaking of lapped cars.
"But it would remove a lot of the lottery effect these events create."
So this would make any "strategies" null and make the now boring "racing" even more boring.
Isn't the point of F1 already lost??
The best technology and drivers going balls out all race long, changing tyres for the best race speed etc.
All they do now is manage the f#@kin tyres or fuel.
Too many penalties for nothing, even changing engines and gearboxes gets a penalty, why?? They are gonna need changing during the season anyway, so why are there penalties for it.
Driving over the white lines is another, they don't do it at Monaco do they?
They should lose the lap time if the tyre on the outside goes over the white line during qualifying and if in the race they should do a stop go in the pits on the third time, anywhere on the circuit.
So this would make any "strategies" null and make the now boring "racing" even more boring.
Isn't the point of F1 already lost??
The best technology and drivers going balls out all race long, changing tyres for the best race speed etc.
All they do now is manage the f#@kin tyres or fuel.
Too many penalties for nothing, even changing engines and gearboxes gets a penalty, why?? They are gonna need changing during the season anyway, so why are there penalties for it.
Driving over the white lines is another, they don't do it at Monaco do they?
They should lose the lap time if the tyre on the outside goes over the white line during qualifying and if in the race they should do a stop go in the pits on the third time, anywhere on the circuit.
Surely the answer is to have the pit lane entry open as now, so those who really need to pit for a new nose or to replace a puncture can do so, but close the pit exit until after the first pass of the safety car, so anyone who pits has to go to to the back of the field. This takes away any tactical advantage of pitting under the safety car but maintains the 'safety' aspect of it.
Similarly for red flags, make the field stop on the grid rather than in the pits, but leave the pit entry open for anyone who needs, so they will be at the back of the field at the restart, with no free new tyres without loss of track position.
Similarly for red flags, make the field stop on the grid rather than in the pits, but leave the pit entry open for anyone who needs, so they will be at the back of the field at the restart, with no free new tyres without loss of track position.
thegreenhell said:
Surely the answer is to have the pit lane entry open as now, so those who really need to pit for a new nose or to replace a puncture can do so, but close the pit exit until after the first pass of the safety car, so anyone who pits has to go to to the back of the field. This takes away any tactical advantage of pitting under the safety car but maintains the 'safety' aspect of it.
Similarly for red flags, make the field stop on the grid rather than in the pits, but leave the pit entry open for anyone who needs, so they will be at the back of the field at the restart, with no free new tyres without loss of track position.
That's just reversing the outcome of the lottery.Similarly for red flags, make the field stop on the grid rather than in the pits, but leave the pit entry open for anyone who needs, so they will be at the back of the field at the restart, with no free new tyres without loss of track position.
Now the driver who was 'going long' has to drive around on old tyres with a newly bunched up pack hunting him down.
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