I've fixed the unlapping car issue, I think..
Discussion
Yeah another F1 thread...At the end of Safety car lap start with a virtual safety car lap ie 40%of your speed then just peal all the cars off that need to be unlapped down the pit lane behind the Safety car, all the front running car stick to a delta speed to say the finishing line then its go go go... the lapped cars then catch up from the pit lane exit... could this work???
Even simpler…
‘Safety car in this lap’ declared at start of lap. Within sector 2 of the lap, all lapped cars will peel to the right and slow and then form up behind whichever nominated (last unlapped) car.
This must be completed by the start of sector 3. Failure to move position in time, immediate entry to pit lane. Held until last car through after restart.
Safety car goes ahead at start of sector 3, leaving leader to become safety car.
Less time delays all round, and allows race director to immediately get things going when track confirmed clear to race. This would have worked well at the last race.
‘Safety car in this lap’ declared at start of lap. Within sector 2 of the lap, all lapped cars will peel to the right and slow and then form up behind whichever nominated (last unlapped) car.
This must be completed by the start of sector 3. Failure to move position in time, immediate entry to pit lane. Held until last car through after restart.
Safety car goes ahead at start of sector 3, leaving leader to become safety car.
Less time delays all round, and allows race director to immediately get things going when track confirmed clear to race. This would have worked well at the last race.
Edited by LM240 on Tuesday 14th December 09:05
Where do you draw the line? working out which ones should be placed where, some circumstances would mean that some cars might end up an extra lap down. What if some of the lapped cars have lapped cars themselves?
The current procedures I think are fine - they just need to be applied consistently, by someone who knows what they are doing, possibly with the added change of no pitting under safety car or VSC.
The current procedures I think are fine - they just need to be applied consistently, by someone who knows what they are doing, possibly with the added change of no pitting under safety car or VSC.
cholo said:
In both of these situations, won't the lapped cars still be a lap behind?
They would potentially be lapped again by cars still on the lead lap that had not reached them yet, and may not have caught them by the end of the race if normal racing had continued. I don't think there is an easy answer really - letting them unlap themselves and then get on with their race without interference from leaders coming through and letting the leaders get on with their race without interference from back markers getting in the way as we have now seems to be the simplest solution - it just needs to be applied consistently.
As I said before, I would remove the ability to pit under SC or VSC, or permit it but with a 5 or so second stop-go requirement as part of the pitstop to make the overall time no shorter than a "normal" pit stop - enough to deter people from gaining an advantage by being in the right place at the right time, but not preventing someone with damage/a puncture/utterly destroyed tyres who really needs to pit. Adding the stop-go by default under SC/VSC conditions would remove any argument about whether the damage was necessary to repair.
cholo said:
In both of these situations, won't the lapped cars still be a lap behind?
They only un lap themselves as a bi-product of getting out the way in this slow fashion. More unnecessary laps behind SC. Just drop back into the running order. So they are still a lap down where they were running anyway. It doesn’t really add much with them being unlapped anyway.
Unlapped cars are in their position, unobstructed by lapped cars and the procedure is so much faster.
Safety car, pits will be closed, open only when all the cars have been picked up by the safety car. On restarts lapped cars will not be allowed to pass the safety car, track positions stay as they are before the safety car period.
Red flag race suspended, no one touches a car, damage sustained by the red flag incident can be replaced like for like. Tyres unless punctured in the red flag incident cannot be changed, if they are changed must be replaced with the same compound and same wear. Race restarts will be track position when the red flag was shown based. So for example pole leader could have 3 lapped cars behind him on the grid before the 2nd place car.
Clear, simple maintains the race conditions before the incidents, still even favouring the chasing cars as the safety car/restart will bring them closer but they will still have the same lapped cars to pass the leader has already passed.
Red flag race suspended, no one touches a car, damage sustained by the red flag incident can be replaced like for like. Tyres unless punctured in the red flag incident cannot be changed, if they are changed must be replaced with the same compound and same wear. Race restarts will be track position when the red flag was shown based. So for example pole leader could have 3 lapped cars behind him on the grid before the 2nd place car.
Clear, simple maintains the race conditions before the incidents, still even favouring the chasing cars as the safety car/restart will bring them closer but they will still have the same lapped cars to pass the leader has already passed.
thegreenhell said:
Why not just leave them where they are? The leader has already had to pass them on track, so why should the second place guy get a free run? It's just more artificial manipulation of the result.
Agreed, why let them unlap themselves?Just means anyone who's gapped the car behind loses even more if they've passed a backmarker while making that gap.
Else a leader is going to assess whether they can gap enough to get a free pit stop, and if they can't, they may as well control the gap to the car behind at 3s and cruise lest they get a safety car and lose the time gap, and the lapped car buffer, and find themselves in a weak position as a result of driving hard. Is that really preferable?
thegreenhell said:
Why not just leave them where they are? The leader has already had to pass them on track, so why should the second place guy get a free run? It's just more artificial manipulation of the result.
100% this, everything should stay as it was before the crash, there is no argument for cars being allowed to un-lap themselves during a safety car, but it's not a new thing although Masi managed to create a new variant of the rule on the spot. thegreenhell said:
Why not just leave them where they are? The leader has already had to pass them on track, so why should the second place guy get a free run? It's just more artificial manipulation of the result.
This. Cars down the order are still racing for position and points also, they also suffer from having their gap demolished. Proper virtual safety car with either fixed max lap or fixed max speed. It’s the only way to maintain fairness really. You still get a cheap pitstop if you want, but it’s not the super cheap one you get now .
For those saying that lapped cars should stay where they are, will you accept that if this was the rule Verstappen would still be champion?
Hamilton was only able to get 18 points for his 2nd place at Imola because he was able to un-lap himself during the red flag (the same rule, sporting regulations paragraph 42.3).
Hamilton was only able to get 18 points for his 2nd place at Imola because he was able to un-lap himself during the red flag (the same rule, sporting regulations paragraph 42.3).
For me, yes. The leader has built a gap and passed some backmarkers to build a buffer.
Safety car bunches the field up and erodes that gap, ok that's one thing but it's how safety cars have always worked, c'est la vie.
But why should the car in front also lose the buffer of lapped cars, that he's caught and had to move offline and slow himself down to pass, but the guy behind gets to pass for free?
Is it for the show, the spectacle, for closer racing? Great. Closer, artificial, racing. But as said above, what you actually get is a leader not bothering to build a big gap or to risk passing more backmarkers than he has to, if a safety car means he's used more fuel, worn more of his tyres, and used up more engine life than he needed to - then lost every aspect of his advantage and now has a load of disadvantages to deal with.
Sort the technical regs out if you want a closer field that's more able to overtake. Not the rule book.
Safety car bunches the field up and erodes that gap, ok that's one thing but it's how safety cars have always worked, c'est la vie.
But why should the car in front also lose the buffer of lapped cars, that he's caught and had to move offline and slow himself down to pass, but the guy behind gets to pass for free?
Is it for the show, the spectacle, for closer racing? Great. Closer, artificial, racing. But as said above, what you actually get is a leader not bothering to build a big gap or to risk passing more backmarkers than he has to, if a safety car means he's used more fuel, worn more of his tyres, and used up more engine life than he needed to - then lost every aspect of his advantage and now has a load of disadvantages to deal with.
Sort the technical regs out if you want a closer field that's more able to overtake. Not the rule book.
Edited by FNG on Tuesday 14th December 15:08
The cars are bunched up by the safety car so there is a large safe part of the track for the Marshall's to work, so VSC is useless, as it always has been.
It's only a "problem" now being behind the safety car due to tyres being s
t when they cool too much, again all drivers are in the same situation.
Tyres make or break a race these days, they should be really soft so they wear heavily and teams have to change at least twice.
Might make a bleeding race of it then.
Can't close the pit lane as damaged cars may need to come in for tyres, front wings etc.
Cars were allowed to unlap themselves to get them out of the way of the actual front racers.
I believe all drivers would prefer them out of the way, as sometimes you get the good luck sometimes you don't.
It's only a "problem" now being behind the safety car due to tyres being s
t when they cool too much, again all drivers are in the same situation. Tyres make or break a race these days, they should be really soft so they wear heavily and teams have to change at least twice.
Might make a bleeding race of it then.
Can't close the pit lane as damaged cars may need to come in for tyres, front wings etc.
Cars were allowed to unlap themselves to get them out of the way of the actual front racers.
I believe all drivers would prefer them out of the way, as sometimes you get the good luck sometimes you don't.
JmatthewB said:
For those saying that lapped cars should stay where they are, will you accept that if this was the rule Verstappen would still be champion?
Hamilton was only able to get 18 points for his 2nd place at Imola because he was able to un-lap himself during the red flag (the same rule, sporting regulations paragraph 42.3).
What would have happened had the farce that was Spa not occured? No way any points should have awared for that.Hamilton was only able to get 18 points for his 2nd place at Imola because he was able to un-lap himself during the red flag (the same rule, sporting regulations paragraph 42.3).
thegreenhell said:
Why not just leave them where they are? The leader has already had to pass them on track, so why should the second place guy get a free run? It's just more artificial manipulation of the result.
I agree. It's always been a pet hate of mine how long it takes to resume racing after a safety car. The main reason is the seemingly interminable wait while all the lapped cars are waved past. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff