Questions from a casual observor

[billbring]

You'll all have to excuse my naivety, I haven't really watched F1 properly for years, I just tuned in yesterday for the billing of two drivers going head to head in a winner takes all situation.

Firstly, why do we still have a safety car in the traditional sense? In the event it's needed, wouldn't it be fairer to just impose a speed limit of say 50mph, or whatever is deemed 'safe'. This could be controlled remotely so that every car is limited at the same time. This way the gaps between each car would stay more or less the same. It seems ludicrous to me that a driver can build up a 10 second lead and then just have that advantage wiped out due to a completely random event outside of their control. Might we in future see drivers having sacrificial crashes towards the end of a race in order to give their team mate a chance of catching their rival?

Secondly, if lapped cars can unlap themselves under a safety car, then that pretty much makes them irrelevant to proceeding from then on. Assuming it's in the latter part of the race, they're not going to affect the lead cars again. So if this is accepted, why aren't they just forced to retire as soon as they've been caught by the lead car the first time. Why is that it's ok for their presence to come in to play before a SC but not after? Again, the SC is a random event completely outside the other drivers' control.

Obviously, I know that the guys in charge aren't really looking for fairness, they're looking for a spectacle, and that's what they got. The final lap of yesterdays race was genuine edge of the seat stuff, but after the dust had settled it was glaringly obvious to me that Lewis had been cheated, and that doesn't really sit well with me.

[andrewcliffe]

There is a virtual safety car where every car slows to a prescribed speed and the gaps are preserved. There are occassions where you need to bunch the cars up on a comparatively slow lap becasue that allows the marshals the most time to clear a stricken car, and clean up any debris on track. Thats harder to do if there is a constant stream of slow cars passing by.

The idea of lapped cars unlapping themselves is that once they've been unlapped they can proceed at a higher speed until they catch up with the back of the 'crocodile' of cars again, and when the restart happens you've not got slow cars in the way of a battle.

[billbring]

andrewcliffe said:

The idea of lapped cars unlapping themselves is that once they've been unlapped they can proceed at a higher speed until they catch up with the back of the 'crocodile' of cars again.

Surely that undermines your first point about it being more difficult to clean up with a constant stream of cars going past if you've got a bunch of other cars coming past at a much higher speed and separate to the SC.

andrewcliffe said:

and when the restart happens you've not got slow cars in the way of a battle.

And that's exactly my point - if one driver has lapped some cars and their closest rival hasn't, then the lead car has legitimately earned that advantage - why should it be taken away from them? If we don't want backmarkers in the way then they should be retired immediately.

[andrewcliffe]

The short train of release lapped cars can be predicted by the marshals and their radio systems and its a one off, and then its back to the slower pace dictated by the safety car. Those lapped cars will know where the problem is - and the flag marshals will be waving their flags with appropriate frenzy.

No system is perfect.

LH has benefited from lucky breaks before, and yes, he didn't do anything wrong in this occassion. MV and RBR didn't do anything wrong either but did the right thing for them to come in for tyres. Had LH come in for tyres he would have lost track position.

Neither LH or MV or their respective teams did anything wrong with the safety car procedure. The argument is whether the FIA's race director did the right thing. There are numerous rules some of which over-rule previous rules.

With the benefit of hindsight, would probably have been to red flag the race, allow new tyres and have a 5 lap sprint to the end.

Making lap cars retire - they're still involved in their own partcular race, so would be unfair to retire them. Traffic has always been a part of motor racing. Even disciplines wehre traffic is very rarely encountered - eg rallying, sometimes its preferable to be high up the starting order, other times its preferable to be futher down as the stage surface evolves as cars go over it.

Edited by andrewcliffe on Monday 13th December 18:33

Edited by andrewcliffe on Monday 13th December 18:36

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

andrewcliffe said:

With the benefit of hindsight, would probably have been to red flag the race, allow new tyres and have a 5 lap sprint to the end.

That is exactly what was called for, not with hindsight, but it was bleedin' obvious at the time.

[SpudLink]

billbring said:

Secondly, if lapped cars can unlap themselves under a safety car, then that pretty much makes them irrelevant to proceeding from then on. Assuming it's in the latter part of the race, they're not going to affect the lead cars again. So if this is accepted, why aren't they just forced to retire as soon as they've been caught by the lead car the first time. Why is that it's ok for their presence to come in to play before a SC but not after? Again, the SC is a random event completely outside the other drivers' control.

Points are awarded all the way down to tenth place. It’s not unusual for cars in the top ten to be lapped by the leaders. Despite being lapped, they are still racing for important points.

It’s not just about the first driver to the chequered flag.

[andrewcliffe]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

That is exactly what was called for, not with hindsight, but it was bleedin' obvious at the time.

One car thats hit a barrier and the driver's OK doesn't seem serious enough to justify stopping the race.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

andrewcliffe said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

That is exactly what was called for, not with hindsight, but it was bleedin' obvious at the time.

One car thats hit a barrier and the driver's OK doesn't seem serious enough to justify stopping the race.

It's not about the severity...it's about avoiding a fiasco! It's been done before, and is a the common system in Indycar to avoid finishing under the yellow.

[Zarco]

andrewcliffe said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

That is exactly what was called for, not with hindsight, but it was bleedin' obvious at the time.

One car thats hit a barrier and the driver's OK doesn't seem serious enough to justify stopping the race.

It wasn't the driver that made the safety car necessary, it was clearing the car/debris.

A red flag and re-start would have messed with the TV schedule mind. I'd have preferred it. Could have had a straight fight on equal footing.

[Little Pete]

billbring said:

And that's exactly my point - if one driver has lapped some cars and their closest rival hasn't, then the lead car has legitimately earned that advantage - why should it be taken away from them?

I’ve never understood this. I get that the safety car is an important part of F1 and having a lead wiped out is a consequence of it being deployed, but if a driver has worked their way past slower cars, I don’t think their rivals should be gifted those overtakes before the race continues.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Little Pete said:

billbring said:

And that's exactly my point - if one driver has lapped some cars and their closest rival hasn't, then the lead car has legitimately earned that advantage - why should it be taken away from them?

I’ve never understood this. I get that the safety car is an important part of F1 and having a lead wiped out is a consequence of it being deployed, but if a driver has worked their way past slower cars, I don’t think their rivals should be gifted those overtakes before the race continues.

I've always wondered a couple of other things about the unlapping thing:

1) There are then cars on the track zipping round at nearly full speed while the safety car is out
2) I'm amazed that an unlapper hasn't been collected by a front runner weaving back & forth to try to warm tyres

[gazza285]

Little Pete said:

I’ve never understood this. I get that the safety car is an important part of F1 and having a lead wiped out is a consequence of it being deployed, but if a driver has worked their way past slower cars, I don’t think their rivals should be gifted those overtakes before the race continues.

However not letting the lapped cars to unlap themselves then harms their race, because the last lapped driver is then placed nearly a full lap behind the car he is chasing, when he might have been within three car lengths before.

Why wasn't Sainz allowed the same opportunity as Verstappen?

[billbring]

I suppose my overriding point is that the safety car should have the minimum possible impact on the race, but (seemingly by design) it currently has a huge impact by wiping out the vast majority of any advantage a given driver has rightfully earned.

What about the situation where a driver purposefully crashes to force the SC in order to give their teammate an advantage?
If Latifi doesn't crash then what if Perez drives his car into the barrier since he knows it automatically eliminates Hamilton's lead. It sounds ridiculous but with the F1 title at stake then why not?

[Zarco]

Also makes it much cleaner/safer when they show the green flag; not having cars on the lead lap trying to get past back markers with all the cars bunched together.

Safety cars breed safety cars as it is.

Point raised about the cars unlapping themselves at full speed under safety car conditions is a good one though. Not sure how that stacks up these days! Are they obliged to slow down for the spot where the incident is located? Do they?!

[Jasandjules]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I've always wondered a couple of other things about the unlapping thing:

1) There are then cars on the track zipping round at nearly full speed while the safety car is out
2) I'm amazed that an unlapper hasn't been collected by a front runner weaving back & forth to try to warm tyres

They are released when the track is clear. This is why there is an additional lap of racing before the safety car comes in, so they can catch the pack back up and not not be in the way when the race restarts.

[andygo]

Jasandjules said:

They are released when the track is clear. This is why there is an additional lap of racing before the safety car comes in, so they can catch the pack back up and not not be in the way when the race restarts.

Except for yesterday when the additional lap requirement for safety considerations was somehow discounted. It's a new rule, called the Massi rule.

Such a shame after an epic season that it was created.