Overtaking on the inside - leaving a car width
Discussion
I see there are plenty of threads (and opinions) on Lewis vs Max and the contribution of the FIA/Massi. I have a different question...
Quite a few times this year, a driver has attempted an overtake on the inside of a corner - no particular driver in mind, I've seen it from several. They have then continued right to the edge of and in some cases beyond track limits on the outside of the exit of the corner. The net result is to force the person on the outside to back off or to drive completely off the track.
When I play racing games on the Xbox/PC, this is what I do. Steam down the inside with no hope of making the corner without bouncing off the wall/other players - it's cheating really. I wouldn't attempt it in real life!
What I don't understand is why this isn't penalised in F1? If there were still gravel traps, this would effectively force someone else out of the race. I thought they had to leave a car's width gap, especially when wheel-to-wheel?
Have I missed this happening previously or is this a recent change to the interpretation of the rules?
Quite a few times this year, a driver has attempted an overtake on the inside of a corner - no particular driver in mind, I've seen it from several. They have then continued right to the edge of and in some cases beyond track limits on the outside of the exit of the corner. The net result is to force the person on the outside to back off or to drive completely off the track.
When I play racing games on the Xbox/PC, this is what I do. Steam down the inside with no hope of making the corner without bouncing off the wall/other players - it's cheating really. I wouldn't attempt it in real life!
What I don't understand is why this isn't penalised in F1? If there were still gravel traps, this would effectively force someone else out of the race. I thought they had to leave a car's width gap, especially when wheel-to-wheel?
Have I missed this happening previously or is this a recent change to the interpretation of the rules?
Milkyway said:
Surely, if a the car on the outside has to put ALL four wheels over the white line.... he has had to exceed track limits in avoidance.
Stewards should then award them the place back.
I think that depends on whether the car on the inside has fairly deliberately pushed him there.Stewards should then award them the place back.
As the OP said, its a great strategy that works well on racing games. Perhaps a certain younger driver learned their driving that way.
James44 said:
As the OP said, its a great strategy that works well on racing games. Perhaps a certain younger driver learned their driving that way.
Probably learned it from the GOAT himself. It is a very useful tactic for the drivers trying to win and most often goes unpunished. It is crap though and I wish it was not allowed, we would have much better battles if everyone had to give room and stay on track.
RB Will said:
James44 said:
As the OP said, its a great strategy that works well on racing games. Perhaps a certain younger driver learned their driving that way.
Probably learned it from the GOAT himself. It is a very useful tactic for the drivers trying to win and most often goes unpunished. It is crap though and I wish it was not allowed, we would have much better battles if everyone had to give room and stay on track.
ecs0set said:
I see there are plenty of threads (and opinions) on Lewis vs Max and the contribution of the FIA/Massi. I have a different question...
Quite a few times this year, a driver has attempted an overtake on the inside of a corner - no particular driver in mind, I've seen it from several. They have then continued right to the edge of and in some cases beyond track limits on the outside of the exit of the corner. The net result is to force the person on the outside to back off or to drive completely off the track.
When I play racing games on the Xbox/PC, this is what I do. Steam down the inside with no hope of making the corner without bouncing off the wall/other players - it's cheating really. I wouldn't attempt it in real life!
What I don't understand is why this isn't penalised in F1? If there were still gravel traps, this would effectively force someone else out of the race. I thought they had to leave a car's width gap, especially when wheel-to-wheel?
Have I missed this happening previously or is this a recent change to the interpretation of the rules?
Well the argument is that if the person diving up the inside can remain on track himself, then the car being overtaken could have done exactly the same to block him. Quite a few times this year, a driver has attempted an overtake on the inside of a corner - no particular driver in mind, I've seen it from several. They have then continued right to the edge of and in some cases beyond track limits on the outside of the exit of the corner. The net result is to force the person on the outside to back off or to drive completely off the track.
When I play racing games on the Xbox/PC, this is what I do. Steam down the inside with no hope of making the corner without bouncing off the wall/other players - it's cheating really. I wouldn't attempt it in real life!
What I don't understand is why this isn't penalised in F1? If there were still gravel traps, this would effectively force someone else out of the race. I thought they had to leave a car's width gap, especially when wheel-to-wheel?
Have I missed this happening previously or is this a recent change to the interpretation of the rules?
The T6 yesterday was a prime example. The track is 8m wide, there is a "racing line" ie the fastest single line around a lap, but nothing to say you have to stick to this line. When Max bombed up the inside and ran wide, to the outside of the track, but remained on track, Lewis could have either 1) done the same or similar line and defended, 2) stomp the brake turned the car behind on better line, and blasted up the inside back past a slow and wide Max, or open the wheel and run wide, and take 100 yards out of Max.
He chose the latter, but the other 2 were options.
poo at Paul's said:
Well the argument is that if the person diving up the inside can remain on track himself, then the car being overtaken could have done exactly the same to block him.
The T6 yesterday was a prime example. The track is 8m wide, there is a "racing line" ie the fastest single line around a lap, but nothing to say you have to stick to this line. When Max bombed up the inside and ran wide, to the outside of the track, but remained on track, Lewis could have either 1) done the same or similar line and defended, 2) stomp the brake turned the car behind on better line, and blasted up the inside back past a slow and wide Max, or open the wheel and run wide, and take 100 yards out of Max.
He chose the latter, but the other 2 were options.
It didn’t matter really which option he chose he had no defence, max on those tyres was always going to get past, you could have Lewis Hamilton in the car and he’s still going to get past :PThe T6 yesterday was a prime example. The track is 8m wide, there is a "racing line" ie the fastest single line around a lap, but nothing to say you have to stick to this line. When Max bombed up the inside and ran wide, to the outside of the track, but remained on track, Lewis could have either 1) done the same or similar line and defended, 2) stomp the brake turned the car behind on better line, and blasted up the inside back past a slow and wide Max, or open the wheel and run wide, and take 100 yards out of Max.
He chose the latter, but the other 2 were options.
The lap 1 incident was slightly different as he had to survive so took the evasive action and was probably happy to concede the place but was told he didn’t need to
poo at Paul's said:
Well the argument is that if the person diving up the inside can remain on track himself, then the car being overtaken could have done exactly the same to block him.
The T6 yesterday was a prime example. The track is 8m wide, there is a "racing line" ie the fastest single line around a lap, but nothing to say you have to stick to this line. When Max bombed up the inside and ran wide, to the outside of the track, but remained on track, Lewis could have either 1) done the same or similar line and defended, 2) stomp the brake turned the car behind on better line, and blasted up the inside back past a slow and wide Max, or open the wheel and run wide, and take 100 yards out of Max.
He chose the latter, but the other 2 were options.
What if you can't "stomp the brake" and avoid the collision - what if the alternative is to hit the other driver / wall / gravel trap? This isn't a "rubbing is racing" series, it's open-wheel, top-flight motorsport and therefore this seems a bit of a dangerous move?The T6 yesterday was a prime example. The track is 8m wide, there is a "racing line" ie the fastest single line around a lap, but nothing to say you have to stick to this line. When Max bombed up the inside and ran wide, to the outside of the track, but remained on track, Lewis could have either 1) done the same or similar line and defended, 2) stomp the brake turned the car behind on better line, and blasted up the inside back past a slow and wide Max, or open the wheel and run wide, and take 100 yards out of Max.
He chose the latter, but the other 2 were options.
It's simple really you leave a car width to the guy you are overtaking none of this crowd of the track bs. If you overtake you must leave room if you also being overtaken you need to leave room as well and when the car is most of the way past say 2/3rds you yield. If club racer can do it without collision I'm sure the top drivers can do it too.
But with massi in charge and this bizzare flip flop between rules one week to the next I can't see next year being any different. I just hope we have more than just the max Hamilton show next year.
But with massi in charge and this bizzare flip flop between rules one week to the next I can't see next year being any different. I just hope we have more than just the max Hamilton show next year.
ecs0set said:
What if you can't "stomp the brake" and avoid the collision - what if the alternative is to hit the other driver / wall / gravel trap? This isn't a "rubbing is racing" series, it's open-wheel, top-flight motorsport and therefore this seems a bit of a dangerous move?
well you can, or you lift off, or change down, or just turn tighter.A block pass like that should not be able to done from so far back, the fact that he did, and did not lock up, meant he was just better into the corner than Lewis. He had more grip on softs, but Lewis was too cautious IMO. Lewis just assumed Max would go off, so stayed on the outside to plead that he'd been knocked off, but Lewis could have stayed on track, but would have lost the place.
I think this is one of the things that has made this season "controversial"
Unfortunately, it's a rod the FIA have made for their own back since the DRS era. By that I mean that aero has taken over to such an extent that it's impossible to follow a car, therefore overtaking moves can only be done in braking zones. Hence the prevalence of "banzai" moves and the "push 'em wide" move. Both Max and Lewis have been using these all season - and the "whose fault is it" then comes down to interpretation.
The only fix (and it's only a half-fix at that) - it to have all drivers essentially do it "racing classics" style - both cars must leave room on track - both on the inside and the outside. F1 cars' extraneous bits of aero, and open wheels, can't take "rubbing" a la touring cars.
I say a "half-fix" as there are plenty of chicanes & hairpins that probably can't take two cars.
The current system mean that there's a mile of interpretation between "last of the late brakers" and "banzai move"
It's probably about time F1 looked at shortening the wheelbase and focusing more on mechanical grip again. The cars are getting too physically big, imo.
M.
Unfortunately, it's a rod the FIA have made for their own back since the DRS era. By that I mean that aero has taken over to such an extent that it's impossible to follow a car, therefore overtaking moves can only be done in braking zones. Hence the prevalence of "banzai" moves and the "push 'em wide" move. Both Max and Lewis have been using these all season - and the "whose fault is it" then comes down to interpretation.
The only fix (and it's only a half-fix at that) - it to have all drivers essentially do it "racing classics" style - both cars must leave room on track - both on the inside and the outside. F1 cars' extraneous bits of aero, and open wheels, can't take "rubbing" a la touring cars.
I say a "half-fix" as there are plenty of chicanes & hairpins that probably can't take two cars.
The current system mean that there's a mile of interpretation between "last of the late brakers" and "banzai move"
It's probably about time F1 looked at shortening the wheelbase and focusing more on mechanical grip again. The cars are getting too physically big, imo.
M.
The problem is masi. He's not been consistent. The "hang out" manoeuvre (hang them out to dry) has been an accepted tactic for a long time, but then came the rule that a driver must not be crowded off the track. So which is correct?
If it's by the regs, it's the latter.
The amazing thing is Max does sim racing. He's part of a team with Lando Norris called Redline Racing. If he sim races like he drives, no-one would race with him and he'd get booted out of the league(s).
F1 is not the only guilty party though. Gentleman racers seem long gone.
FWIW I have raced in about 10 different sim racing leagues and the racing is waaaay more respectful than it is today. I find that amazing that in a virtual place of no risk of injury, the racing is cleaner.
All leagues have one rule today - always leave racing room or you're out. If you accidentally get it wrong you give the place back immediately, because everyone knows when they got it wrong.
E.g. https://youtu.be/YU6GRZ6kcJ4 you can see the fun and close racing that is had when it's kept respectful with racing room respected. (Even the guy at the end of the redbull ring video dobbed himself in to the stewards afterwards)
If it's by the regs, it's the latter.
The amazing thing is Max does sim racing. He's part of a team with Lando Norris called Redline Racing. If he sim races like he drives, no-one would race with him and he'd get booted out of the league(s).
F1 is not the only guilty party though. Gentleman racers seem long gone.
FWIW I have raced in about 10 different sim racing leagues and the racing is waaaay more respectful than it is today. I find that amazing that in a virtual place of no risk of injury, the racing is cleaner.
All leagues have one rule today - always leave racing room or you're out. If you accidentally get it wrong you give the place back immediately, because everyone knows when they got it wrong.
E.g. https://youtu.be/YU6GRZ6kcJ4 you can see the fun and close racing that is had when it's kept respectful with racing room respected. (Even the guy at the end of the redbull ring video dobbed himself in to the stewards afterwards)
Edited by mattikake on Monday 13th December 21:50
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