E92 M3 or M2 OG light track suitability?

[Onetrackmind]

Hi All,

I think one of these two will be added to the fleet soon. We have a big American SUV for family duties and an ageing 996 turbo, but I want something that is usable daily (to help ferry the kids around) that can also be taken on a track day half a dozen times a year. If I go for an E92 M3 I’ll probably upgrade the suspension and brakes to make it more suitable for the track (assuming it’s lacking as standard!?) - thinking clubsport spec. The question is, by the time I spend on the mods for the E92, should I just get the M2? Does the M2 OG need any further mods for track? Assuming just a set of decent pads and brake fluid is all it needs!?

Thanks

[nickfrog]

I track mine on DS1. 11 pads and I have not boiled the OE (but fresh) fluid yet.

It's not a track car as it is 1,495kg DIN but it is very good fun and a really good solution if you want a decent all rounder/versatile road car. I also do 5/6 days a year.

I am even running road tyres and there is just enough camber to not damage the shoulders too much if you don't stay out too long.

My main issue on track is that the seats are not quite as supportive as they should despite the lumbar support option which helps a little.

[JP__FOX]

I looked at both and in the end went for the M4... As a car to use mainly on the road with a few track days, I found the newer cars much nicer on the road than the E92.

If it was mainly for track use then the cheaper car to allow more money for modifications makes sense but I wanted to retain some comfort. If I'd spent the same money on the E92 and mods then it could well be significantly quicker on track but that wasn't what I was looking for...

[cerb4.5lee]

I've sat alongside Nick(nickfrog) at Cadwell Park, and his M2 really impressed me(and his driving too!). It was great for me to experience what these full fat M cars are really capable of doing on a track.

I've had a E92 M3, and I've currently got a F82 M4...but you can't experience how good they are on a road for me. You can drive them very fast on the road(if you are willing to), but a track is where they really shine in comparison to the road I think.

Regarding the brakes on the E92 M3...I didn't personally rate them much at all even for only high speed road use, so for me the brakes on the M2/M4 are far better in comparison.

[Onetrackmind]

Thanks for the replies!

It seems there’s an argument to get an M2/M4 rather than modifying an E92. £20k on an E92, plus £2k on front brakes, £2k on coilovers, and £2k on rod bearings puts you in an M2 or M4. Seems M2/M4 brakes are up to the job...........but how about the suspension?

That said, the S65 in the E92 is a special thing which I think will become even more sought after in the future.

Lots to think about!

Thanks again.

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

I track mine on DS1. 11 pads and I have not boiled the OE (but fresh) fluid yet.

It's not a track car as it is 1,495kg DIN but it is very good fun and a really good solution if you want a decent all rounder/versatile road car. I also do 5/6 days a year.

I am even running road tyres and there is just enough camber to not damage the shoulders too much if you don't stay out too long.

My main issue on track is that the seats are not quite as supportive as they should despite the lumbar support option which helps a little.

I love the bmw M2 but one thing annoys me about it, is for its size it’s too heavy! There is no way an M2 has a 1495kg DIN weight, any I’ve seen built at the ring are over 1500kg’s and their stripped although caged but still far lighter than standard configuration.

[nickfrog]

NIgt3 said:

I love the bmw M2 but one thing annoys me about it, is for its size it’s too heavy! There is no way an M2 has a 1495kg DIN weight, any I’ve seen built at the ring are over 1500kg’s and their stripped although caged but still far lighter than standard configuration.

I am just quoting the official figure, which happens to be the same as the E46 M3 which is also the same size so I would say it is pretty consistent with its size and despite many years of added safety. It's possible that BMW lie more than they used to or that they lie more than other manufacturers though...

It would be great if it was 200kg lighter but that ship has probably sailed. Not sure of how much even a GT3 weighs these days but 1350kg DIN I guess.

Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 27th November 18:06

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

NIgt3 said:

I love the bmw M2 but one thing annoys me about it, is for its size it’s too heavy! There is no way an M2 has a 1495kg DIN weight, any I’ve seen built at the ring are over 1500kg’s and their stripped although caged but still far lighter than standard configuration.

I am just quoting the official figure, which happens to be the same as the E46 M3 which is also the same size so I would say it is pretty consistent with its size and despite many years of added safety. It's possible that BMW lie more than they used to or that they lie more than other manufacturers though...

It would be great if it was 200kg lighter but that ship has probably sailed. Not sure of how much even a GT3 weighs these days but 1350kg DIN I guess.

Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 27th November 18:06

My e46 m3 was 1570kg when corner weighted, I’m near sure the Offical EU DIN figures are meant to include 90% tank of fuel and all other fluids, without doubt BMW did lie still it’s a problem with all BMW’s, weight, but I still love them!

[nickfrog]

NIgt3 said:

My e46 m3 was 1570kg when corner weighted, I’m near sure the Offical EU DIN figures are meant to include 90% tank of fuel and all other fluids, without doubt BMW did lie still it’s a problem with all BMW’s, weight, but I still love them!

DIN is EU minus 75kg.

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

NIgt3 said:

My e46 m3 was 1570kg when corner weighted, I’m near sure the Offical EU DIN figures are meant to include 90% tank of fuel and all other fluids, without doubt BMW did lie still it’s a problem with all BMW’s, weight, but I still love them!

DIN is EU minus 75kg.

Basically A load of st3 then

[nickfrog]

NIgt3 said:

Basically A load of st3 then

The intention whether EU or DIN is to provide a stable benchmark between manufacturers for comparison purposes, on the assumption that all manufacturers lie by the same amount.

A bit like the mpg protocol, no one takes it seriously in absolute terms but it is useful to compare cars.

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

NIgt3 said:

Basically A load of st3 then

The intention whether EU or DIN is to provide a stable benchmark between manufacturers for comparison purposes, on the assumption that all manufacturers lie by the same amount.

A bit like the mpg protocol, no one takes it seriously in absolute terms but it is useful to compare cars.

I get ye, and for that purpose I suppose it should work, but for stating the actual weight of a car, it’s useless because it’s not even close

[nickfrog]

NIgt3 said:

I get ye, and for that purpose I suppose it should work, but for stating the actual weight of a car, it’s useless because it’s not even close

Perhaps but remember that 1495 is for the original car in manual and no options. An auto Comp will be 80kg heavier, perhaps that's what they used as a basis for the Ring cars. Perhaps their scales were off or not calibrated.

I keep saying I will have my car weighted at the local weighbridge. I'll try and do that soon.

Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 28th November 16:08

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

NIgt3 said:

I get ye, and for that purpose I suppose it should work, but for stating the actual weight of a car, it’s useless because it’s not even close

Perhaps but remember that 1495 is for the original car in manual and no options. An auto Comp will be 80kg heavier, perhaps that's what they used as a basis for the Ring cars. Perhaps their scales were off or not calibrated.

I keep saying I will have my car weighted at the local weighbridge. I'll try and do that soon.

Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 28th November 16:08

Having seen Philip Webber’s car at the ring, completely stripped and fully built, he told me it weighed 1530kg, I fail to see any standard m2 being 1495kg, I know manual is lighter (I think by 30kg) their still too heavy, like bmw state their lightest configuration being 1495kg but they also say they can be 1650kg, for a car that size it’s far far too heavy.

[nickfrog]

NIgt3 said:

Having seen Philip Webber’s car at the ring, completely stripped and fully built, he told me it weighed 1530kg, I fail to see any standard m2 being 1495kg, I know manual is lighter (I think by 30kg) their still too heavy, like bmw state their lightest configuration being 1495kg but they also say they can be 1650kg, for a car that size it’s far far too heavy.

No it's consistent with a E46 M3 of the same size and same official DIN weight. I don't know that BMW lie more than they used to then. Perhaps Mr Webber's car is based on a Comp which adds yet another 55kgs.

How light should a car that size and configuration be in your experience?

Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 28th November 17:51

[Leon R]

E92 needs brakes (I would start with pads and fluid first) and seats to be good on the track and that's it.

Beyond that I would do a few days and see what I felt I wanted.

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

NIgt3 said:

Having seen Philip Webber’s car at the ring, completely stripped and fully built, he told me it weighed 1530kg, I fail to see any standard m2 being 1495kg, I know manual is lighter (I think by 30kg) their still too heavy, like bmw state their lightest configuration being 1495kg but they also say they can be 1650kg, for a car that size it’s far far too heavy.

No it's consistent with a E46 M3 of the same size and same official DIN weight. I don't know that BMW lie more than they used to then. Perhaps Mr Webber's car is based on a Comp which adds yet another 55kgs.

How light should a car that size and configuration be in your experience?

Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 28th November 17:51

I can’t say I’ve ever seen an e46 m3 at 1650kg, but standard m2’s can be. For me a car that size standard should be 1500kg, to clarify I mean 1500kg on actual scales not claimed by the manufacturer’s.

To add Webber’s cars fully stripped, bbs wheels, kw 3ways, full Akrapovic, recaro seats etc etc and was 1530kg to compare my e46 m3 stripped was 1360kg with half a tank.

Edited by NIgt3 on Sunday 28th November 20:31

[nickfrog]

NIgt3 said:

I can’t say I’ve ever seen an e46 m3 at 1650kg, but standard m2’s can be. For me a car that size standard should be 1500kg, to clarify I mean 1500kg on actual scales not claimed by the manufacturer’s.

For clarity they're both 1495kg DIN in manual form (N55 engine as discussed here). We are not discussing the S55 DCT Comp with all options which may be 1650kg (again, S55 adds 55kgs, DCT adds 30kgs and the rest of the potential delta is probably the BBK, the sunroof, the electric seats and other options). Or they're both 1570kg EU if you ptefer. Those are normalised ways of expressing weight. It's interesting they've contained the weight despite much more safety features since the E46. I suspect compliance is much tighter now than it used to be so I still have no reason to believe BMW lie more than they used to.

That weight seems consistent with the size of the car and its layout.

If you thought the EU weight should be 1500kg, where would you save the 70kgs in either the M2 or the E46?

[NIgt3]

nickfrog said:

NIgt3 said:

I can’t say I’ve ever seen an e46 m3 at 1650kg, but standard m2’s can be. For me a car that size standard should be 1500kg, to clarify I mean 1500kg on actual scales not claimed by the manufacturer’s.

For clarity they're both 1495kg DIN in manual form (N55 engine as discussed here). We are not discussing the S55 DCT Comp with all options which may be 1650kg (again, S55 adds 55kgs, DCT adds 30kgs and the rest of the potential delta is probably the BBK, the sunroof, the electric seats and other options). Or they're both 1570kg EU if you ptefer. Those are normalised ways of expressing weight. It's interesting they've contained the weight despite much more safety features since the E46. I suspect compliance is much tighter now than it used to be so I still have no reason to believe BMW lie more than they used to.

That weight seems consistent with the size of the car and its layout.

If you thought the EU weight should be 1500kg, where would you save the 70kgs in either the M2 or the E46?

Can’t remember exactly what weight Bmw saved on the e46 m3 csl but I’m near sure it was more than 70kg, think the total weight was 1390kg, I don’t believe bmw could get a road legal m2 of any model down to that weight, the cars simply to heavy to start with no matter what the offical weights say, I’m not arguing with you because I believe all BMW’s are too heavy but as I said previously the m2 sticks out in my mind as being heavy for its size, and I would still buy one because for me their the best looking m car this past few models!

[simonw67]

None of them are the best track cars unless very heavily modified.