All these new engines for Bottas
Discussion
Do we have any theories why he has had to take so many engines?
Mercedes say that the Monza unit was "toast" afterwards, but didn't really clarify why. However, he had a new unit in Russia and again in America. He should have had one or two that were still usable from the first half of the season too.
So why so many? While Hamilton has only taken one instead of three?
I can imagine a few scenarios, but I'd love to hear other thoughts:
1) Bottas is trying out higher engine modes before they use them on Hamilton. Hence the Monza unit burning out. So Hamilton is avoiding going into the higher modes and hence is conserving his engines. Some support for this could be Bottas out qualifying Hamilton in Monza and his solid performance in Turkey.
> But if he's running higher modes I'd expect him to be far more racy than he is. Russia was really disappointing (compared with Max carving his way through the field) and America wasn't exactly a stellar climb through the grid either.
2) Bottas needs a higher mode to keep up, as Max and Lewis are in a class of their own and the McLarens are a lot racier now.
> Seems unlikely - given that it's clear Bottas usually struggles to gain places, better to let him qualify in 3/4th (he has got a few poles and seconds too!) even if he does end up slipping back in the race, it's still not as far back as putting in at best sixth at the start
3) They are simply sacrificing Bottas to "develop" their engine for next year.
> Not sure how much "development" benefit you would get from the allowed changes, compared with running genuine improvements on a dyno. Seems a bit of a waste, unless they are trying to gather some very specific data (e.g. when Honda had that turboshaft issue that only manifested in the car)
Any other ideas?
Mercedes say that the Monza unit was "toast" afterwards, but didn't really clarify why. However, he had a new unit in Russia and again in America. He should have had one or two that were still usable from the first half of the season too.
So why so many? While Hamilton has only taken one instead of three?
I can imagine a few scenarios, but I'd love to hear other thoughts:
1) Bottas is trying out higher engine modes before they use them on Hamilton. Hence the Monza unit burning out. So Hamilton is avoiding going into the higher modes and hence is conserving his engines. Some support for this could be Bottas out qualifying Hamilton in Monza and his solid performance in Turkey.
> But if he's running higher modes I'd expect him to be far more racy than he is. Russia was really disappointing (compared with Max carving his way through the field) and America wasn't exactly a stellar climb through the grid either.
2) Bottas needs a higher mode to keep up, as Max and Lewis are in a class of their own and the McLarens are a lot racier now.
> Seems unlikely - given that it's clear Bottas usually struggles to gain places, better to let him qualify in 3/4th (he has got a few poles and seconds too!) even if he does end up slipping back in the race, it's still not as far back as putting in at best sixth at the start
3) They are simply sacrificing Bottas to "develop" their engine for next year.
> Not sure how much "development" benefit you would get from the allowed changes, compared with running genuine improvements on a dyno. Seems a bit of a waste, unless they are trying to gather some very specific data (e.g. when Honda had that turboshaft issue that only manifested in the car)
Any other ideas?
I have a pet theory that Bottas’ “new” engines aren’t actually new, and what they’re doing is stripping a single engine down every couple of races, inspecting and measuring everything, then rebuilding it, to try and work out the settings needed to allow Lewis’s engines to run as high as possible in the remaining races. Stripping it down breaks the FIA seals, so it needs to be re-submitted to the scrutineers and a penalty taken each time they do it.
That does explain why he's not going as fast as you'd expect with a new engine. And probably his petulance (e.g. in Russia).
Surprised that inspection and analysis is still based on actual teardowns. With all the NDT techniques these days I would have thought they could probably find out what they needed without breaking the engine apart.
Hopefully at some point in the future we will find out, I am sure there must be a really interesting story there.
Surprised that inspection and analysis is still based on actual teardowns. With all the NDT techniques these days I would have thought they could probably find out what they needed without breaking the engine apart.
Hopefully at some point in the future we will find out, I am sure there must be a really interesting story there.
kambites said:
Whatever they're doing, they're at significant risk of throwing away the constructor's championship if they're not careful.
Yup. From what I’ve gathered Perez has given up trying to drive the car like max and gone his own way in set up. If Perez keeps on this route and starts firing and beating bottas it’s wide open. Carlososos said:
kambites said:
Whatever they're doing, they're at significant risk of throwing away the constructor's championship if they're not careful.
Yup. From what I’ve gathered Perez has given up trying to drive the car like max and gone his own way in set up. If Perez keeps on this route and starts firing and beating bottas it’s wide open. It's always the same with us sat at home on a forum trying to debate what they're doing and why - we don't have the data they have internally to start to make sense of it all.. let alone a small army of very switched on analysts that are paid to spend all day and probably many evenings considering every possible outcome and crunching the numbers to work out which course of action is best.
All we know for sure is that they're burning through engines so they're definitely doing something a little unconventional - which might be the best thing they can do, and still ultimately not work out for the best.
Flooble said:
Do we have any theories why he has had to take so many engines?
Mercedes say that the Monza unit was "toast" afterwards, but didn't really clarify why. However, he had a new unit in Russia and again in America. He should have had one or two that were still usable from the first half of the season too.
So why so many? While Hamilton has only taken one instead of three?
I can imagine a few scenarios, but I'd love to hear other thoughts:
1) Bottas is trying out higher engine modes before they use them on Hamilton. Hence the Monza unit burning out. So Hamilton is avoiding going into the higher modes and hence is conserving his engines. Some support for this could be Bottas out qualifying Hamilton in Monza and his solid performance in Turkey.
> But if he's running higher modes I'd expect him to be far more racy than he is. Russia was really disappointing (compared with Max carving his way through the field) and America wasn't exactly a stellar climb through the grid either.
2) Bottas needs a higher mode to keep up, as Max and Lewis are in a class of their own and the McLarens are a lot racier now.
> Seems unlikely - given that it's clear Bottas usually struggles to gain places, better to let him qualify in 3/4th (he has got a few poles and seconds too!) even if he does end up slipping back in the race, it's still not as far back as putting in at best sixth at the start
3) They are simply sacrificing Bottas to "develop" their engine for next year.
> Not sure how much "development" benefit you would get from the allowed changes, compared with running genuine improvements on a dyno. Seems a bit of a waste, unless they are trying to gather some very specific data (e.g. when Honda had that turboshaft issue that only manifested in the car)
Any other ideas?
4) We put conspiracy theories aside and acknowledge that Mercedes have a reliability issue which has, by chance, affected Bottas more than Hamilton. Not forgetting that Bottas also lost at least one engine after his big crash at Imola.Mercedes say that the Monza unit was "toast" afterwards, but didn't really clarify why. However, he had a new unit in Russia and again in America. He should have had one or two that were still usable from the first half of the season too.
So why so many? While Hamilton has only taken one instead of three?
I can imagine a few scenarios, but I'd love to hear other thoughts:
1) Bottas is trying out higher engine modes before they use them on Hamilton. Hence the Monza unit burning out. So Hamilton is avoiding going into the higher modes and hence is conserving his engines. Some support for this could be Bottas out qualifying Hamilton in Monza and his solid performance in Turkey.
> But if he's running higher modes I'd expect him to be far more racy than he is. Russia was really disappointing (compared with Max carving his way through the field) and America wasn't exactly a stellar climb through the grid either.
2) Bottas needs a higher mode to keep up, as Max and Lewis are in a class of their own and the McLarens are a lot racier now.
> Seems unlikely - given that it's clear Bottas usually struggles to gain places, better to let him qualify in 3/4th (he has got a few poles and seconds too!) even if he does end up slipping back in the race, it's still not as far back as putting in at best sixth at the start
3) They are simply sacrificing Bottas to "develop" their engine for next year.
> Not sure how much "development" benefit you would get from the allowed changes, compared with running genuine improvements on a dyno. Seems a bit of a waste, unless they are trying to gather some very specific data (e.g. when Honda had that turboshaft issue that only manifested in the car)
Any other ideas?
This also plays out with both Aston Martin and Williams having to change engines in the US GP.
Muzzer79 said:
Flooble said:
Do we have any theories why he has had to take so many engines?
Mercedes say that the Monza unit was "toast" afterwards, but didn't really clarify why. However, he had a new unit in Russia and again in America. He should have had one or two that were still usable from the first half of the season too.
So why so many? While Hamilton has only taken one instead of three?
I can imagine a few scenarios, but I'd love to hear other thoughts:
1) Bottas is trying out higher engine modes before they use them on Hamilton. Hence the Monza unit burning out. So Hamilton is avoiding going into the higher modes and hence is conserving his engines. Some support for this could be Bottas out qualifying Hamilton in Monza and his solid performance in Turkey.
> But if he's running higher modes I'd expect him to be far more racy than he is. Russia was really disappointing (compared with Max carving his way through the field) and America wasn't exactly a stellar climb through the grid either.
2) Bottas needs a higher mode to keep up, as Max and Lewis are in a class of their own and the McLarens are a lot racier now.
> Seems unlikely - given that it's clear Bottas usually struggles to gain places, better to let him qualify in 3/4th (he has got a few poles and seconds too!) even if he does end up slipping back in the race, it's still not as far back as putting in at best sixth at the start
3) They are simply sacrificing Bottas to "develop" their engine for next year.
> Not sure how much "development" benefit you would get from the allowed changes, compared with running genuine improvements on a dyno. Seems a bit of a waste, unless they are trying to gather some very specific data (e.g. when Honda had that turboshaft issue that only manifested in the car)
Any other ideas?
4) We put conspiracy theories aside and acknowledge that Mercedes have a reliability issue which has, by chance, affected Bottas more than Hamilton. Not forgetting that Bottas also lost at least one engine after his big crash at Imola.Mercedes say that the Monza unit was "toast" afterwards, but didn't really clarify why. However, he had a new unit in Russia and again in America. He should have had one or two that were still usable from the first half of the season too.
So why so many? While Hamilton has only taken one instead of three?
I can imagine a few scenarios, but I'd love to hear other thoughts:
1) Bottas is trying out higher engine modes before they use them on Hamilton. Hence the Monza unit burning out. So Hamilton is avoiding going into the higher modes and hence is conserving his engines. Some support for this could be Bottas out qualifying Hamilton in Monza and his solid performance in Turkey.
> But if he's running higher modes I'd expect him to be far more racy than he is. Russia was really disappointing (compared with Max carving his way through the field) and America wasn't exactly a stellar climb through the grid either.
2) Bottas needs a higher mode to keep up, as Max and Lewis are in a class of their own and the McLarens are a lot racier now.
> Seems unlikely - given that it's clear Bottas usually struggles to gain places, better to let him qualify in 3/4th (he has got a few poles and seconds too!) even if he does end up slipping back in the race, it's still not as far back as putting in at best sixth at the start
3) They are simply sacrificing Bottas to "develop" their engine for next year.
> Not sure how much "development" benefit you would get from the allowed changes, compared with running genuine improvements on a dyno. Seems a bit of a waste, unless they are trying to gather some very specific data (e.g. when Honda had that turboshaft issue that only manifested in the car)
Any other ideas?
This also plays out with both Aston Martin and Williams having to change engines in the US GP.
Muzzer79 said:
4) We put conspiracy theories aside and acknowledge that Mercedes have a reliability issue which has, by chance, affected Bottas more than Hamilton. Not forgetting that Bottas also lost at least one engine after his big crash at Imola.
This also plays out with both Aston Martin and Williams having to change engines in the US GP.
Most likely this. Also remember Lewis is more efficient and economic in his driving based on fuel usage so could be stressing the engine less.This also plays out with both Aston Martin and Williams having to change engines in the US GP.
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