P400e engine any good?
Discussion
Considering a 110 defender and stuck on engine choice with no cars to test drive. Currently have a D5 with the 3l diesel which is good but I am near London so concerned about resale down the line if I go diesel again.
When I bought the D5 I test drove the 2L petrol and hated it - seemed to have no go for a car that heavy.
So considering the P400e but wondered what real world experience was. In particular what happens when the battery is flat as I understand it doesn’t really recharge itself. How long does that take if you drive in hybrid mode and what’s it like when that happens _ presumably big heavy car with 2L petrol ? Other options are the 3L petrol but it is thirsty. V8 is out of my price range
Thanks
When I bought the D5 I test drove the 2L petrol and hated it - seemed to have no go for a car that heavy.
So considering the P400e but wondered what real world experience was. In particular what happens when the battery is flat as I understand it doesn’t really recharge itself. How long does that take if you drive in hybrid mode and what’s it like when that happens _ presumably big heavy car with 2L petrol ? Other options are the 3L petrol but it is thirsty. V8 is out of my price range
Thanks
I had the P400e in the RRS for a few days and quite liked it. Fully charged it was pretty quick. But yes, it was a bit annoying not having the full power available when the battery was dead. I also reckon these plug in hybrids might crash in value at some point as they don’t really seem to do any one thing well.
The 2.0l petrol on its own is fine, though (I own a P300 D5). I don’t quite understand your dislike of it in the D5; sure, it doesn’t have the low down torque of the 3.0 diesel but it’s just as quick if you work it. Even compared to my Dad’s D300 (the new I6 engine) it’s pretty evenly matched if you’re working it hard, but the D300 is a far better engine overall and very relaxed.
The 2.0l petrol on its own is fine, though (I own a P300 D5). I don’t quite understand your dislike of it in the D5; sure, it doesn’t have the low down torque of the 3.0 diesel but it’s just as quick if you work it. Even compared to my Dad’s D300 (the new I6 engine) it’s pretty evenly matched if you’re working it hard, but the D300 is a far better engine overall and very relaxed.
I've got the P400e RRS, and I like it. I haven't really noticed a drop in power when the battery is depleted, probably because it always seems to have some residual charge in it at can be used when accelerating hard. The battery does recharge with regenerative braking, just to give it some electrical power for a short time when the engine is under high load.
For local journeys, I pootle around in EV mode using just the battery (about 17 miles).
Sometimes the switch between EV & engine isn't that smooth, but normally it is refined.
You ought to try one before you buy. I did come across (only) one person who couldn't get on with it.
For local journeys, I pootle around in EV mode using just the battery (about 17 miles).
Sometimes the switch between EV & engine isn't that smooth, but normally it is refined.
You ought to try one before you buy. I did come across (only) one person who couldn't get on with it.
I have a P400e Velar. It’s 0-60 is 5.1s and you always have electric motor available for harsh acceleration (I think the EV range only uses 75% of the battery). In my case I am getting 26 miles of local driving which is far better than my previous Merc & BMW plug-ins. For the right journeys they are very good but hopeless if most miles are on motorways - about 25-30 mpg as your dragging the batteries around. I don’t know about the RR Sport but you can’t get air suspension on the Velar P400e
I have the full fat Rangie with p400e.
I think it is an excellent choice - quite possibly the best. Silent and immediate torque. Great economy (I'm averaging 45mpg across all my driving). However, it is usage dependent - it suits my usage pattern well. Most journeys are sub 20 miles return so I can go weeks without using any fuel. Economy on a long run is woeful though - low 20's mpg. I do have to do quite a few 400-500 mile round trips in it with no charging (or perhaps an overnight 20miles at the destination).
There is no shortage of power even on zero battery. At motorway speeds, the car only needs 100bhp or so to maintain the cruise - the petrol engine has 300bhp. When you really floor it to, say, gain another 20-30mph, there always seems to be enough in the battery to give you that extra 100bhp (on top of the 300bhp from the petrol) shove for the seconds that you need it. I believe this gets recharged through regenerative braking. I think of it like KERS on an F1 car.
Worth watching Jonny Smith's Review on the Defender PHEV vs V8
I think it is an excellent choice - quite possibly the best. Silent and immediate torque. Great economy (I'm averaging 45mpg across all my driving). However, it is usage dependent - it suits my usage pattern well. Most journeys are sub 20 miles return so I can go weeks without using any fuel. Economy on a long run is woeful though - low 20's mpg. I do have to do quite a few 400-500 mile round trips in it with no charging (or perhaps an overnight 20miles at the destination).
There is no shortage of power even on zero battery. At motorway speeds, the car only needs 100bhp or so to maintain the cruise - the petrol engine has 300bhp. When you really floor it to, say, gain another 20-30mph, there always seems to be enough in the battery to give you that extra 100bhp (on top of the 300bhp from the petrol) shove for the seconds that you need it. I believe this gets recharged through regenerative braking. I think of it like KERS on an F1 car.
Worth watching Jonny Smith's Review on the Defender PHEV vs V8
AstonZagato said:
I have the full fat Rangie with p400e.
I think it is an excellent choice - quite possibly the best. Silent and immediate torque. Great economy (I'm averaging 45mpg across all my driving). However, it is usage dependent - it suits my usage pattern well. Most journeys are sub 20 miles return so I can go weeks without using any fuel. Economy on a long run is woeful though - low 20's mpg. I do have to do quite a few 400-500 mile round trips in it with no charging (or perhaps an overnight 20miles at the destination).
There is no shortage of power even on zero battery. At motorway speeds, the car only needs 100bhp or so to maintain the cruise - the petrol engine has 300bhp. When you really floor it to, say, gain another 20-30mph, there always seems to be enough in the battery to give you that extra 100bhp (on top of the 300bhp from the petrol) shove for the seconds that you need it. I believe this gets recharged through regenerative braking. I think of it like KERS on an F1 car.
Worth watching Jonny Smith's Review on the Defender PHEV vs V8
I've had a FFRR for nearly 3 years and my usage is almost identical to yours. I seem to go weeks without using any petrol, and even find myself driving extra frugally (plus turning off air con!) just to complete a journey on battery alone. It's surprisingly satisfying as well as relaxing. I think it is an excellent choice - quite possibly the best. Silent and immediate torque. Great economy (I'm averaging 45mpg across all my driving). However, it is usage dependent - it suits my usage pattern well. Most journeys are sub 20 miles return so I can go weeks without using any fuel. Economy on a long run is woeful though - low 20's mpg. I do have to do quite a few 400-500 mile round trips in it with no charging (or perhaps an overnight 20miles at the destination).
There is no shortage of power even on zero battery. At motorway speeds, the car only needs 100bhp or so to maintain the cruise - the petrol engine has 300bhp. When you really floor it to, say, gain another 20-30mph, there always seems to be enough in the battery to give you that extra 100bhp (on top of the 300bhp from the petrol) shove for the seconds that you need it. I believe this gets recharged through regenerative braking. I think of it like KERS on an F1 car.
Worth watching Jonny Smith's Review on the Defender PHEV vs V8
I wish the battery was just a little larger - similar to what BMW are offering - but right now I can't think of a better option for the car. Previously I had the V8 diesel, which was pretty impressive, and the 4 pot turbo doesn't quite make the same noise, but it's certainly not lacking any power.
Thanks all some useful thoughts there. Seems like my view that a 2L petrol isn’t sufficient is out of date. Just wish I could test drive one to see but looks like I can forget that for 12-18m !
Interesting that the battery doesn’t completely discharge as that should help give it a bit of go for overtaking - that’s really what I want. I dont need a Defender that can compete with a supercar just want one that gets past Sunday drivers when you need to and can cruise at motorway speeds plus a bit
My 3L diesel D5 is fine for that
Cheers all
Interesting that the battery doesn’t completely discharge as that should help give it a bit of go for overtaking - that’s really what I want. I dont need a Defender that can compete with a supercar just want one that gets past Sunday drivers when you need to and can cruise at motorway speeds plus a bit
My 3L diesel D5 is fine for that
Cheers all
I have a RRS P400e. At first I thought it was amazing, but now I've had it 18 months I've fallen out with it and won't be bothering with a PHEV again. My usage fits the hybrid perfectly - my commute is about 12 miles a day total through the city, and nipping to shops/town/parents/mates can largely be done on the battery. It's brilliantly smooth on the battery, but as others have said the transition from battery to petrol engine isn't always smooth, even when warm.
Full disclosure - I'm getting rid of the car due to constant faults that can't be repaired (long story) so perhaps mine is worse than others in this respect, but I've grown tired of the slight delay when the engine kicks in, it's most apparent when creeping up to junctions/roundabouts then needing power to pull away. Mine misfires, which is clearly a fault, however one they've been unable to repair and I've read reports on the FB group of similar engine troubles. It's very noticeable in the morning the first time the engine is called into life.
Also, they're not as cheap to run as you think - especially now electricity prices are shooting up. It's not a real 40mpg or whatever the readout will tell you, as you've had to pay for the electricity. You need an EV tariff with overnight rate to make it worthwhile, otherwise your energy bills will rocket as mine did before switching. Forget charging on the go, at 30p per kwh or more it's cheaper just to run it on petrol.
I'm going back to a 6 cylinder petrol again, I just prefer the smoothness and always knowing where you're at with it, not having the engine cutting in and out all the time or putting up with an engine that's too small for the car when the battery dies.
Full disclosure - I'm getting rid of the car due to constant faults that can't be repaired (long story) so perhaps mine is worse than others in this respect, but I've grown tired of the slight delay when the engine kicks in, it's most apparent when creeping up to junctions/roundabouts then needing power to pull away. Mine misfires, which is clearly a fault, however one they've been unable to repair and I've read reports on the FB group of similar engine troubles. It's very noticeable in the morning the first time the engine is called into life.
Also, they're not as cheap to run as you think - especially now electricity prices are shooting up. It's not a real 40mpg or whatever the readout will tell you, as you've had to pay for the electricity. You need an EV tariff with overnight rate to make it worthwhile, otherwise your energy bills will rocket as mine did before switching. Forget charging on the go, at 30p per kwh or more it's cheaper just to run it on petrol.
I'm going back to a 6 cylinder petrol again, I just prefer the smoothness and always knowing where you're at with it, not having the engine cutting in and out all the time or putting up with an engine that's too small for the car when the battery dies.
Shrimpvende said:
I have a RRS P400e. At first I thought it was amazing, but now I've had it 18 months I've fallen out with it and won't be bothering with a PHEV again. My usage fits the hybrid perfectly - my commute is about 12 miles a day total through the city, and nipping to shops/town/parents/mates can largely be done on the battery. It's brilliantly smooth on the battery, but as others have said the transition from battery to petrol engine isn't always smooth, even when warm.
Full disclosure - I'm getting rid of the car due to constant faults that can't be repaired (long story) so perhaps mine is worse than others in this respect, but I've grown tired of the slight delay when the engine kicks in, it's most apparent when creeping up to junctions/roundabouts then needing power to pull away. Mine misfires, which is clearly a fault, however one they've been unable to repair and I've read reports on the FB group of similar engine troubles. It's very noticeable in the morning the first time the engine is called into life.
Also, they're not as cheap to run as you think - especially now electricity prices are shooting up. It's not a real 40mpg or whatever the readout will tell you, as you've had to pay for the electricity. You need an EV tariff with overnight rate to make it worthwhile, otherwise your energy bills will rocket as mine did before switching. Forget charging on the go, at 30p per kwh or more it's cheaper just to run it on petrol.
I'm going back to a 6 cylinder petrol again, I just prefer the smoothness and always knowing where you're at with it, not having the engine cutting in and out all the time or putting up with an engine that's too small for the car when the battery dies.
Interesting to read. Faults aside, you make a good point about the cost of electricity. Quite honestly, I've not really factored that in when I think about the mpg I'm getting. It's easy to think of the electricity as being "free" given that you don't pay for it like you do for petrol. Full disclosure - I'm getting rid of the car due to constant faults that can't be repaired (long story) so perhaps mine is worse than others in this respect, but I've grown tired of the slight delay when the engine kicks in, it's most apparent when creeping up to junctions/roundabouts then needing power to pull away. Mine misfires, which is clearly a fault, however one they've been unable to repair and I've read reports on the FB group of similar engine troubles. It's very noticeable in the morning the first time the engine is called into life.
Also, they're not as cheap to run as you think - especially now electricity prices are shooting up. It's not a real 40mpg or whatever the readout will tell you, as you've had to pay for the electricity. You need an EV tariff with overnight rate to make it worthwhile, otherwise your energy bills will rocket as mine did before switching. Forget charging on the go, at 30p per kwh or more it's cheaper just to run it on petrol.
I'm going back to a 6 cylinder petrol again, I just prefer the smoothness and always knowing where you're at with it, not having the engine cutting in and out all the time or putting up with an engine that's too small for the car when the battery dies.
The new FFRR has just been launched with a much larger battery giving 62 miles of range max with a V6 engine. For me, that ticks a lot of the boxes that don't get ticked on the current P400e so am currently thinking about that one, but I'm going to keep a closer eye on the electricity bills....
Worth searching for Harry Metcalfe’s video on new Range Rover launch where he talked about his experience with p400e Range Rover. Very complimentary - though he cheats on the electricity consumption saying he has a wind turbine (matching leccy generated with that needed to fill an EV is virtually impossible in my experience of having a wind turbine and an EV) so it doesn’t cost him anything. I think he’s fooling himself
It’s a shame the phev isn’t available with a Bigger battery pack in anything below the new FFRR. Am probably about to get xc90 T8 phev which has newly enlarged battery (19kWh I think) for 42 theoretical miles range and less than 30g of co2 so worth sticking in the company
It’s a shame the phev isn’t available with a Bigger battery pack in anything below the new FFRR. Am probably about to get xc90 T8 phev which has newly enlarged battery (19kWh I think) for 42 theoretical miles range and less than 30g of co2 so worth sticking in the company
oop north said:
Worth searching for Harry Metcalfe’s video on new Range Rover launch where he talked about his experience with p400e Range Rover. Very complimentary - though he cheats on the electricity consumption saying he has a wind turbine (matching leccy generated with that needed to fill an EV is virtually impossible in my experience of having a wind turbine and an EV) so it doesn’t cost him anything. I think he’s fooling himself
It’s a shame the phev isn’t available with a Bigger battery pack in anything below the new FFRR. Am probably about to get xc90 T8 phev which has newly enlarged battery (19kWh I think) for 42 theoretical miles range and less than 30g of co2 so worth sticking in the company
I thought Harry complained about the interface between the engine /gearbox/ motor being clunky and ruining the car on his P400e .... Must have been a different video It’s a shame the phev isn’t available with a Bigger battery pack in anything below the new FFRR. Am probably about to get xc90 T8 phev which has newly enlarged battery (19kWh I think) for 42 theoretical miles range and less than 30g of co2 so worth sticking in the company
Have you looked at the X5 45e?
I regularly get a real 45-50 miles electric
And when that runs out a silky straight 6 - absolutely brilliant, seamless power train, the switch between what is deliving the power is only perceptible by looking at the dials change in normal driving.
Shame the styling is bit of a miss
Pretty sure it's the same power train going into the new FFRR with bigger battery packs and two engine power tunes
Should be a fantastic vehicle
custardkid said:
Have you looked at the X5 45e?
I regularly get a real 45-50 miles electric
And when that runs out a silky straight 6 - absolutely brilliant, seamless power train, the switch between what is deliving the power is only perceptible by looking at the dials change in normal driving.
Shame the styling is bit of a miss
The boot is much smaller on the X5 45e than regular x5. Same on merc gle and the range rovers - -plus the range rovers have poor range and high co2 so no tax wheeze. No electric car has a really big boot - iX less than iX3 (which is rwd only). Don’t fancy any Tesla I regularly get a real 45-50 miles electric
And when that runs out a silky straight 6 - absolutely brilliant, seamless power train, the switch between what is deliving the power is only perceptible by looking at the dials change in normal driving.
Shame the styling is bit of a miss
Thread revival as I’m looking at a 2019 RRS p400e. The value of these has obviously dropped a fair amount over the last year or so what with the amount of them that go missing etc, but at sub £40k for a circa 30k mile car they’re starting to look like good value, now insurance quotes are more reasonable.
What is the general opinion on this engine now that it’s a few years older?
What is the general opinion on this engine now that it’s a few years older?
No direct knowledge but have been reading lots after noticing the same re: used prices of these! Some real bargains out there. The 2.0 petrol seems to be have avoided the complaints of the diesel and whilst maybe not suited to being the only power source for a Defender/RRS it seems to have been a very good fit for the hybrid.
I've been looking lots at hybrid options from JLR and finding that:
1. Boot space / internal space is a bit compromised by it having two power sources. Not sure on older model but the new RRS deals with it ok but still lower boot lost. The 110 loses a chunk of the upper boot too and it's little unplanned looking.
Only the new RRS and new FFRR platforms have been built with batteries in mind I guess.
2. 20-odd miles might seem ok now but I presume prices are so low as the cars are extra complex and that range is so small. New PHEVs are up about 50 miles EV range. Bulk of buyers bought them for the BIK benefit and never plugged them in? Electricity prices are higher and the 2.0 engine maybe not best economy wise if dragging flat batteries everywhere. If you do plug in, to get best from it you need to always plug it in.
The new RRS PHEV is a crazy tax dodge as a company purchase so I presume pattern will repeat.
How much further they will drop down is a bit of a worry! A new 90k one will drop more in first 2 or 3 years though.
I've been looking lots at hybrid options from JLR and finding that:
1. Boot space / internal space is a bit compromised by it having two power sources. Not sure on older model but the new RRS deals with it ok but still lower boot lost. The 110 loses a chunk of the upper boot too and it's little unplanned looking.
Only the new RRS and new FFRR platforms have been built with batteries in mind I guess.
2. 20-odd miles might seem ok now but I presume prices are so low as the cars are extra complex and that range is so small. New PHEVs are up about 50 miles EV range. Bulk of buyers bought them for the BIK benefit and never plugged them in? Electricity prices are higher and the 2.0 engine maybe not best economy wise if dragging flat batteries everywhere. If you do plug in, to get best from it you need to always plug it in.
The new RRS PHEV is a crazy tax dodge as a company purchase so I presume pattern will repeat.
How much further they will drop down is a bit of a worry! A new 90k one will drop more in first 2 or 3 years though.
orbit123 said:
No direct knowledge but have been reading lots after noticing the same re: used prices of these! Some real bargains out there. The 2.0 petrol seems to be have avoided the complaints of the diesel and whilst maybe not suited to being the only power source for a Defender/RRS it seems to have been a very good fit for the hybrid.
I've been looking lots at hybrid options from JLR and finding that:
1. Boot space / internal space is a bit compromised by it having two power sources. Not sure on older model but the new RRS deals with it ok but still lower boot lost. The 110 loses a chunk of the upper boot too and it's little unplanned looking.
Only the new RRS and new FFRR platforms have been built with batteries in mind I guess.
2. 20-odd miles might seem ok now but I presume prices are so low as the cars are extra complex and that range is so small. New PHEVs are up about 50 miles EV range. Bulk of buyers bought them for the BIK benefit and never plugged them in? Electricity prices are higher and the 2.0 engine maybe not best economy wise if dragging flat batteries everywhere. If you do plug in, to get best from it you need to always plug it in.
The new RRS PHEV is a crazy tax dodge as a company purchase so I presume pattern will repeat.
How much further they will drop down is a bit of a worry! A new 90k one will drop more in first 2 or 3 years though.
I had a 2019 RRS P400e and now have a 2023 P440e. They’re worlds apart. The P400e is a 4 pot, very agricultural engine with a very unrefined hybrid system. I enjoyed mine and it did its job well but it was a shoe horned in system. Neither of mine have been company cars and they’re worth plugging in to offer an alternative view to a couple of your points. The P440e gets 50+ miles as a pure EV which is more than enough for most people to not need to use the engine very often. On the subject of the engine the P440e and P460e are a 3 litre 6 pot which is much smoother and the hybrid system is superb. I charge mine at night which means it costs around 5p per mile to fuel running as a pure EV (which it can), on a fast run up to Heathrow and back (140 mile trip) it’ll get over 40mpg plus drain the battery (£3 to fully charge).I've been looking lots at hybrid options from JLR and finding that:
1. Boot space / internal space is a bit compromised by it having two power sources. Not sure on older model but the new RRS deals with it ok but still lower boot lost. The 110 loses a chunk of the upper boot too and it's little unplanned looking.
Only the new RRS and new FFRR platforms have been built with batteries in mind I guess.
2. 20-odd miles might seem ok now but I presume prices are so low as the cars are extra complex and that range is so small. New PHEVs are up about 50 miles EV range. Bulk of buyers bought them for the BIK benefit and never plugged them in? Electricity prices are higher and the 2.0 engine maybe not best economy wise if dragging flat batteries everywhere. If you do plug in, to get best from it you need to always plug it in.
The new RRS PHEV is a crazy tax dodge as a company purchase so I presume pattern will repeat.
How much further they will drop down is a bit of a worry! A new 90k one will drop more in first 2 or 3 years though.
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