Discussion
Could I ask an honest question about how you can compete in the BTCC?
Every week Nicholas Hamilton is at the back ( or nearly) of the grid. This season we also have Rick Parfitt jr.
Are they genuinely decent race drivers but who are obviously not in the same league as Sutton, Turkington and others, or is the case that they have masses of money behind them and can indulge themselves?
As I said , it’s an honest question, please don’t reply abuse or comments like “ they’re a million times better than you’ll ever be! etc etc.
Every week Nicholas Hamilton is at the back ( or nearly) of the grid. This season we also have Rick Parfitt jr.
Are they genuinely decent race drivers but who are obviously not in the same league as Sutton, Turkington and others, or is the case that they have masses of money behind them and can indulge themselves?
As I said , it’s an honest question, please don’t reply abuse or comments like “ they’re a million times better than you’ll ever be! etc etc.
Money as it does in any series plays a part, teams will take people who have money in one bike and talent in the other to be likely helped paid for by the richer driver. Parfitt is a decent driver, been quick in GT racing. But Hamilton, well we all know why he is there, fair enough, but I don't think it speaks well on a series when a guy who was nothing special in Clio's is dropped into a BTCC car just because of sponsors and his name. But it is nothing new.
LukeBrown66 said:
Money as it does in any series plays a part, teams will take people who have money in one bike and talent in the other to be likely helped paid for by the richer driver. Parfitt is a decent driver, been quick in GT racing. But Hamilton, well we all know why he is there, fair enough, but I don't think it speaks well on a series when a guy who was nothing special in Clio's is dropped into a BTCC car just because of sponsors and his name. But it is nothing new.
Senna Proctor was nothing special in Clios…Would Parfett be at the back if he was in a WSR/Yuasa Honda car. You have to believe that a team that is consistently at the front operates better than a team at the back.
Oliphant and Jelly seem adamant to disprove my theory though so what do I know.
I certainly believe there are probably a dozen cars in BTCC that are capable of winning, the rest probably don’t have a chance and by car I mean car and team combined.
For example I don’t think team hard would win even if they had a WSR built BMW because they just don’t have the strength and depth in the ‘team’ to optimise it’s setup and have good enough drivers.
Sorry drivelling on not good at explaining what I mean.
Oliphant and Jelly seem adamant to disprove my theory though so what do I know.
I certainly believe there are probably a dozen cars in BTCC that are capable of winning, the rest probably don’t have a chance and by car I mean car and team combined.
For example I don’t think team hard would win even if they had a WSR built BMW because they just don’t have the strength and depth in the ‘team’ to optimise it’s setup and have good enough drivers.
Sorry drivelling on not good at explaining what I mean.
As much as I respect Nic, he is really a waste of an entrance in BTCC. He routinely underperforms compared to what the car could achieve. Just look at how the driver that replaced him in the last races a couple/few championships ago and almost immediately got better results. He doesn't seem to have a good luck in the races either, he and Jade would have no luck if it were not for bad luck.
As for Parfitt, it's his first season and you can't really expect a lot from him, he is still in the learning phase.
As for Parfitt, it's his first season and you can't really expect a lot from him, he is still in the learning phase.
Every race has backmarkers - it's inevitable . I watched Hamilton from trackside again a couple of weeks ago - he looks a perfectly competent fast driver , but as we all know it's eking the last second out of the car that is the tricky bit . It's rare that I see somebody racing who is completely clueless - that said , the odd time I've been at Time Attack and similar , I have seen some drivers who are rarely in the same post code as corner apices.
Peacockantony said:
As much as I respect Nic, he is really a waste of an entrance in BTCC. He routinely underperforms compared to what the car could achieve. Just look at how the driver that replaced him in the last races a couple/few championships ago and almost immediately got better results. He doesn't seem to have a good luck in the races either, he and Jade would have no luck if it were not for bad luck.
I wonder if it's a fitness thing, perhaps he can't train as hard as needed. As for racing it's always been said by his brother Lewis that Nic beats him on sim racing where taking the G forces and fitness are not really needed.Metal Guru said:
Ok put another way. If I had enough money to run my own team ( I don’t , purely hypothetical), could I just rock up as one of the drivers or am I required to work my way up through lesser race series first?
Your team and drivers would need to have an international race licence, according to the regulations, for which you’ll need to show experience in lower, national, categories first. 1.3.3 - Eligibility Criteria
BTCC Sporting Regulations 2021
https://www.btcc.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/20...
Metal Guru said:
Ok put another way. If I had enough money to run my own team ( I don’t , purely hypothetical), could I just rock up as one of the drivers or am I required to work my way up through lesser race series first?
International C license and the money and away you go as a BTCC driver. To go from nothing to an International C license is around 10 races with no safety issues from memory.BTCC is no different from the vast majority of motorsport in that as long as you have a license and money you can race. There are series with faster cars that you only need to pass your ARDS test for and then start driving with zero experience.
I think the sad part is that some of us can remember the late 90's when every driver on the grid was a top level either touring car star or international level or even a decent single seater or prototype man, mixed in with the Harveys, Clelands who were top level BTCC men already, you recall that, and see the likes of Hamilton out there and think blimey he would be seconds off the back in 97
What's with the picking on Hamilton all the time?
If you crunch the numbers and work out the average lap time gap between the best and worst team mates in each team (allowing for the fact that the best in some teams is often running with a lot of ballast) Hamilton is not really any worse than those around him and they aren't driving with the physical limitations that he has.
Motorsport has changed a lot from the 90's where money was largely irrelevant to a lot of teams. Drivers with money, either their own or from being attractive to sponsors, is what is keeping motorsport alive in many respects.
If you crunch the numbers and work out the average lap time gap between the best and worst team mates in each team (allowing for the fact that the best in some teams is often running with a lot of ballast) Hamilton is not really any worse than those around him and they aren't driving with the physical limitations that he has.
Motorsport has changed a lot from the 90's where money was largely irrelevant to a lot of teams. Drivers with money, either their own or from being attractive to sponsors, is what is keeping motorsport alive in many respects.
JoelH said:
What's with the picking on Hamilton all the time?
If you crunch the numbers and work out the average lap time gap between the best and worst team mates in each team (allowing for the fact that the best in some teams is often running with a lot of ballast) Hamilton is not really any worse than those around him and they aren't driving with the physical limitations that he has.
Motorsport has changed a lot from the 90's where money was largely irrelevant to a lot of teams. Drivers with money, either their own or from being attractive to sponsors, is what is keeping motorsport alive in many respects.
Because people are idiots. Fully agree with your points if you went 10 years back the field spread between first and last would be several seconds now it's a second or so.If you crunch the numbers and work out the average lap time gap between the best and worst team mates in each team (allowing for the fact that the best in some teams is often running with a lot of ballast) Hamilton is not really any worse than those around him and they aren't driving with the physical limitations that he has.
Motorsport has changed a lot from the 90's where money was largely irrelevant to a lot of teams. Drivers with money, either their own or from being attractive to sponsors, is what is keeping motorsport alive in many respects.
MG CHRIS said:
JoelH said:
What's with the picking on Hamilton all the time?
If you crunch the numbers and work out the average lap time gap between the best and worst team mates in each team (allowing for the fact that the best in some teams is often running with a lot of ballast) Hamilton is not really any worse than those around him and they aren't driving with the physical limitations that he has.
Motorsport has changed a lot from the 90's where money was largely irrelevant to a lot of teams. Drivers with money, either their own or from being attractive to sponsors, is what is keeping motorsport alive in many respects.
Because people are idiots. Fully agree with your points if you went 10 years back the field spread between first and last would be several seconds now it's a second or so.If you crunch the numbers and work out the average lap time gap between the best and worst team mates in each team (allowing for the fact that the best in some teams is often running with a lot of ballast) Hamilton is not really any worse than those around him and they aren't driving with the physical limitations that he has.
Motorsport has changed a lot from the 90's where money was largely irrelevant to a lot of teams. Drivers with money, either their own or from being attractive to sponsors, is what is keeping motorsport alive in many respects.
Same here, Hamilton has the sponsors or can get the sponsors, yet because he isnt fighting for race wins or even top tens, he will get slaughtered.
It's essentially jealousy in most cases.
To be honest with some of the comments I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but here's a few opinions from my point of view:
1. Money and talent typically go hand in hand, the more of one you have, the less of the other you need, but you need a fair helping of each/both to get in a touring car seat. No-one in the field is crap, everyone is a different level of good.
2. Money and talent might be the most prominent but are not the only commodities that are a factor in driver selection. Profile, conduct, team play, consistency/reliability, tendency to damage the cars, personal relationships and half a dozen other attributes relating to reputation are all factors that teams will typically take into account when choosing their lineup (assuming there are more drivers with enough money/talent to go around than there are seats as there are usually and at the moment).
3. Similar to the above, talent comes in different forms. Just because someone isn't at the top of the timesheets every weekend doesn't mean they aren't an asset to a team. Also just because someone wasn't top of the timesheets in a support series doesn't mean they won't be quick in a BTCC car and vice versa. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses as a driver, most will jump in any car and be pretty quick but there aren't many that will jump in anything and win races straight away.
4. It might be obvious but the teams are teams, not just drivers in cars run by teams. I think it's fair to say the time spread for a given distance is about as close as any form of motorsport in the world at the moment and the way your crew, engineers and driver line up all works together influences how competitive they will collectively be as a group. Sometimes it can go wrong because a quick driver has the car setup in an unconventional way that disrupts the rest of the group (or even a disruptive engineer that comes with a driver), sometimes it can go wrong just because of personality clashes or conflicting expectations.
5. Some teams will focus on one driver (or a driver will look to demand that status for themselves from the team), others will look to push their whole line-up as far forward as possible.
6. On the flipside of this to complicate it, some drivers wont drive for certain teams depending on perception of their prep, their ethos when it comes to point 5, conflicting sponsorship or even past issues with existing members of personnel in the team or driver line up. Politics in other words.
Also to add, I'm pretty sure there is a form of driver permit when it comes to BTCC, even if it's informal. There was a point a few years back at which if you hadn't raced in the championship before then you had to have shown your worth in other championships (whether it be something like British GT or a feeder series like Porsches/Minis/Ginettas), and on top of that had to cover a certain amount of mileage in a BTCC car before you are accepted to enter.
1. Money and talent typically go hand in hand, the more of one you have, the less of the other you need, but you need a fair helping of each/both to get in a touring car seat. No-one in the field is crap, everyone is a different level of good.
2. Money and talent might be the most prominent but are not the only commodities that are a factor in driver selection. Profile, conduct, team play, consistency/reliability, tendency to damage the cars, personal relationships and half a dozen other attributes relating to reputation are all factors that teams will typically take into account when choosing their lineup (assuming there are more drivers with enough money/talent to go around than there are seats as there are usually and at the moment).
3. Similar to the above, talent comes in different forms. Just because someone isn't at the top of the timesheets every weekend doesn't mean they aren't an asset to a team. Also just because someone wasn't top of the timesheets in a support series doesn't mean they won't be quick in a BTCC car and vice versa. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses as a driver, most will jump in any car and be pretty quick but there aren't many that will jump in anything and win races straight away.
4. It might be obvious but the teams are teams, not just drivers in cars run by teams. I think it's fair to say the time spread for a given distance is about as close as any form of motorsport in the world at the moment and the way your crew, engineers and driver line up all works together influences how competitive they will collectively be as a group. Sometimes it can go wrong because a quick driver has the car setup in an unconventional way that disrupts the rest of the group (or even a disruptive engineer that comes with a driver), sometimes it can go wrong just because of personality clashes or conflicting expectations.
5. Some teams will focus on one driver (or a driver will look to demand that status for themselves from the team), others will look to push their whole line-up as far forward as possible.
6. On the flipside of this to complicate it, some drivers wont drive for certain teams depending on perception of their prep, their ethos when it comes to point 5, conflicting sponsorship or even past issues with existing members of personnel in the team or driver line up. Politics in other words.
Also to add, I'm pretty sure there is a form of driver permit when it comes to BTCC, even if it's informal. There was a point a few years back at which if you hadn't raced in the championship before then you had to have shown your worth in other championships (whether it be something like British GT or a feeder series like Porsches/Minis/Ginettas), and on top of that had to cover a certain amount of mileage in a BTCC car before you are accepted to enter.
indigorallye said:
If I had the money I'd go BTCC or BGT, and I'd never threaten the top step, but I'd have a great crack.
So, if you can, then do. Good luck to them.
This really. If someone can convince a team to run a car for them, why shouldn't they be there. (assuming they are good enough not to be dangerous)So, if you can, then do. Good luck to them.
voram said:
Of the thousands of racing drivers on this planet very few get paid for their efforts. In one way or another most of them pay to drive.
It's an overly simplistic point of view. The main problem with it is that eventually you run out of cash unless you start with a pretty serious pile of it. Plenty on the grid, myself included, don't get paid to drive a racing car but make it work for them with their career or business in motorsport.
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