Settle a debate - Withdrawal of Yellow Flag

[ESD1711]

Have foolishly been drawn in to a debate on Twitter (yes, I should know better!) in the aftermath of last weekends Touring Car meet at Silverstone and in particular the race 1 pass that Rory Butcher makes on Tom Ingram.

Tom questioned it at the time and suggested the pass was made under yellows - it was deemed not to be the case and the pass stood.

A different camera angle shows that the yellow flag is pulled in literally as the cars arrive at the corner, thus by the time they pass - there is no flag out.

Now, as far as I’m concerned - as soon as that flag is withdrawn, normal racing conditions resume.

However, I’m coming up against someone who is very keen to suggest that as per yellow flag rules, no passing should happen till you pass a green flag.

I’m 99% sure I’m correct in saying that as soon as that yellow comes in, there’s no longer a need to wait for a green - if there’s no yellow, there can be no ‘start point’ for yellows and no way of folk further down the field even knowing it was out at all, and therefore no way you’d need to wait for a green to resume racing / passing.

To me, the ‘wait till you pass a green’ only applies for an active yellow. And when that yellow is gone, so is the need to back off.

Tell me I’m right….. or if I’m wrong, why / how?!

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

you should wait for the green flag, or as in this instance the flag was withdrawn, you wait for the next Marshall post. if I could be arsed to read the blue book, I am sure it would agree.

also what was Butcher doing starting the overtake when the yellow flag was out? He may have timed it well, and got away with it but his intent is not compatible with safe racing.

it's professional racing, (apparently) so all margins are exploited and you get situations like this. /hohum, let's see the impact in club racing.

[ESD1711]

To me that makes no sense.

If I’m running at the back of the pack (say I’m AJ in the hybrid car as the most extreme example), I’m coming down the straight under green flag conditions and by the time I get to that corner there is no flag. So, how am I supposed to know there was a yellow flag out and that I should subsequently be looking for a green?

Green flag marks the end of a yellow controlled zone - how can there be an end to something that no longer has a start?

[MartinDB]

If a driver can see a Yellow flag being withdrawn, then they haven't reached it, so they aren't effected by it.

If I'm waving the Green flag, it will always be out until the last car I saw pass the Yellow before it was withdrawn has passed me.

At the DTM meeting at Brands 2 years ago, the light controllers would turn the Green on at the next post when I went Yellow, and turn it off 10 seconds after I turned my Yellow off.

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

ESD1711 said:

To me that makes no sense.

If I’m running at the back of the pack (say I’m AJ in the hybrid car as the most extreme example), I’m coming down the straight under green flag conditions and by the time I get to that corner there is no flag. So, how am I supposed to know there was a yellow flag out and that I should subsequently be looking for a green?

Green flag marks the end of a yellow controlled zone - how can there be an end to something that no longer has a start?

I'm going to take a wild punt here and say that you've never raced?

Also you are conflating your supposition. Your AJ/hybrid example is not the same as the Ingram/Butcher example.

If the yellow flag is out, and you are attempting an overtake in that zone, whether that be at the ned of the straight or otherwise, you should back out of it. If you are extremely lucky the flag might be put back in by the time you are alongside. In anycase both the overtaker and overtakee should react to the flags, I think the terminology is 'slow down, be prepared to stop'. So if you are belting down a straight, and you see a yellow ahead you should not be thinking about an overtake. You might if you haven't seen the yellow ( which might be the case in Butchers example) however that's no excuse. If the yellow goes back in before you get there, then you could overtake directly after that Marshall post and before the next, as worse case scenario the next post will display a green, or no flag.

your example makes no sense, if the flags are green, you can race, if they aren't you can't. If they are not being shown you can race. It is unlikely that it would go green flags, yellow flag, no flag. `it would be no flags, yellow, green, or no flags, no flag, green, or just no flags.

It is a very marginal call that Butcher got away with, had the flag stayed out a second or so longer he could have ended up with a few points on his licence. Also Ingram spotted the flag and reacted correctly, Butcher didn't but got away with it.

[ESD1711]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

I'm going to take a wild punt here and say that you've never raced?

Also you are conflating your supposition. Your AJ/hybrid example is not the same as the Ingram/Butcher example.

If the yellow flag is out, and you are attempting an overtake in that zone, whether that be at the ned of the straight or otherwise, you should back out of it. If you are extremely lucky the flag might be put back in by the time you are alongside. In anycase both the overtaker and overtakee should react to the flags, I think the terminology is 'slow down, be prepared to stop'. So if you are belting down a straight, and you see a yellow ahead you should not be thinking about an overtake. You might if you haven't seen the yellow ( which might be the case in Butchers example) however that's no excuse. If the yellow goes back in before you get there, then you could overtake directly after that Marshall post and before the next, as worse case scenario the next post will display a green, or no flag.

your example makes no sense, if the flags are green, you can race, if they aren't you can't. If they are not being shown you can race. It is unlikely that it would go green flags, yellow flag, no flag. `it would be no flags, yellow, green, or no flags, no flag, green, or just no flags.

It is a very marginal call that Butcher got away with, had the flag stayed out a second or so longer he could have ended up with a few points on his licence. Also Ingram spotted the flag and reacted correctly, Butcher didn't but got away with it.

Current Race Club licence holder thanks.

I used the AJ example as he was furthest back / least likely to be aware of the yellow. Yellow flag was long gone by the time he got there so how can he be expected to know anything about it to know he should back off till a green at next post?

I don’t deny Rory got lucky. But that’s not the question I’m asking about.

Put simply - If a yellow is withdrawn before I get there, say I’m half way down the straight and notice it being taken in, do I still need to back out and look for a green at the next post?

You seem to actually be agreeing with me here while trying to go in the offensive for some reason?!

You’ve said ‘If the yellow goes back in before you get there, then you could overtake directly after that Marshall post and before the next’ - that is quite literally exactly the scenario I’m describing!!

[Drumroll]

You are all correct to a degree.

The Blue book says:

Yellow flag – Waved: Danger, slow down sufficiently to
ensure that full control of the vehicle can be retained.
No overtaking.

Green flag – Waved: All clear, at the end of a danger
area controlled by yellow flags.


12.24.5. Overtaking or not slowing down is an offence from
the point of passing the Yellow flag(s) until the Green flag is
passed.


But the issue here is at what point does it cease to "be a danger
area controlled by yellow flags."

Normally what happens is the marshal who is on the green flag will withdraw it after any cars that they believe would have seen the yellow before it is withdrawn. (But A; he may not be aware of all the cars that could have seen the yellow B; he may be a bit slow in doing it as he may not have seen exactly when the yellow flag was withdrawn )

The race driver may see a yellow flag being withdrawn from a distance and then he rightly feels it is no longer "a danger
area controlled by yellow flags." So he could overtake before he passes the green flag

All this is further complicated by defining that point of withdrawal and defining slowing down.

The same thing applies when the yellow flag first goes out. (Where was the car(s) in relation to the deployment of the flag(s))

Then in the instance that started the thread you have to add in the camera angle and lens distortion. So it all becomes a bit of a grey area

[The Wookie]

The rules say and I always treat it as follows; zone starts at the yellow and ends at the green, if I’m passed the hazard and I see a post with no flags out then I’ll use common sense and carry on, a bit like temporary speed gantries on a motorway, however usually the marshalls at the green flag post will keep it out for a bit longer until all the cars that were shown the yellow have passed.

I also wouldn’t underestimate most people on the BTCC grid for being aware of the flags being pulled in and timing a move for it, as well as keeping one eye on the post at all times. I certainly do it and whenever I go club racing I often nick positions before and coming out of yellow flag zones simply because I’m following the rules more closely.

The real challenge at Silverstone at the weekend was actually seeing the flags on the National straight, the more visible posts were a distance apart and on the right side of the National straight

With the way the racing pans out your eyes are drawn that side and unless you’re leading or have a bigger gap in front of you then your peripheral view was usually obstructed

Apparently they are bringing in in-car flag alerts next year so that should help massively if it works properly

Edited by The Wookie on Thursday 30th September 08:14

[IanUAE]

If a speed restriction has been temporarily put in place (slow zone / code 60) in endurance races, the cars can only accelerate once they pass a green flag.

[geeks]

IanUAE said:

If a speed restriction has been temporarily put in place (slow zone / code 60) in endurance races, the cars can only accelerate once they pass a green flag.

Which is great but nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

[emicen]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

I'm going to take a wild punt here and say that you've never raced?

ESD1711 said:

Current Race Club licence holder thanks.

If we’re going to chew over syntax and semantics, it would be remiss not to point out, that’s not what he asked


Anyways, question at hand:

Q12.24.5 is irrelevant as there was no yellow flag displayed at Post 11. Easily visible on the TV footage from the race, therefore as he had not entered the yellow flag zone, he does not need to wait to pass a green flag to overtake



That being said, a couple of frames later when you can see him start to dive track left to start the pass, you can see the waving yellow at Post 12 (the yellow smudge by the pause symbol). This was shown on the reverse angle to have been withdrawn moments before he arrived at it, and from its perpendicular position across the track means he did not overtake under yellows.




Looks very much to me like he would have been unsighted, and it was probably his team relaying the message from race control about withdrawing the yellow that prompted him to pounce and it was timed to perfection.

But that’s supposition, haven’t seen the onboard or been privy to their radio chatter. In any case, it would appear Xcelr8 came to the same conclusion as me, that whether luck or brilliance, there was nothing illegal and protesting it would be pointless.

[The Wookie]

Seen the video on Facebook since my earlier post, I’d say more likely Rory lined it up on the previous lap and judged it that he would either have his nose in front (and hence passed) before he got to the yellow flag or would back out of it

Ultimately the hazard was on the next corner and the previous post didn’t have a flag out so I’d call that pushing the limits of the regs without breaking them

[Megaflow]

Are you saying if there is a Marshall post without a yellow flag waving then the racing is back on regardless of if a green has been waved?

If so, just think that through for a minute, you are effectively saying because you can’t see a yellow flag racing is fine. Does that mean as soon as you have pasted the Marshall post waving the yellow that racing is fine until you can see the next yellow, because the first yellow is behind and you can’t see it?

[Drumroll]

Megaflow said:

Are you saying if there is a Marshall post without a yellow flag waving then the racing is back on regardless of if a green has been waved?

If so, just think that through for a minute, you are effectively saying because you can’t see a yellow flag racing is fine. Does that mean as soon as you have pasted the Marshall post waving the yellow that racing is fine until you can see the next yellow, because the first yellow is behind and you can’t see it?

In effect yes, if you don't see the yellow (as it has been withdrawn) then you are clear to race. The exception is that if you have entered an area covered by a yellow and then it is withdrawn you cannot overtake until the next post (which should still be showing the green)

As I alluded to earlier the problem is defining that area.

Edited by Drumroll on Thursday 30th September 16:41

[The Wookie]

Megaflow said:

Are you saying if there is a Marshall post without a yellow flag waving then the racing is back on regardless of if a green has been waved?

If so, just think that through for a minute, you are effectively saying because you can’t see a yellow flag racing is fine. Does that mean as soon as you have pasted the Marshall post waving the yellow that racing is fine until you can see the next yellow, because the first yellow is behind and you can’t see it?

That's not quite what I'm saying, I did add common sense. I'd obviously be looking for an incident (or the clearance of one that was there previously), and I wouldn't be assuming anything if I didn't have clear line of sight (like at Knockhill),

For example you do occasionally get a situation where an incident has evidently been cleared and the green that was out the lap before gets pulled at the same time as the yellow.

At the other end of the scale, if I'd gone past a set of yellows for the first time hadn't seen a green or an incident then I'd continue being cautious for an extra couple of empty posts. That does often happen when someone has spun and continues quickly, the post throws a yellow out and pulls it back in again before the next post has a chance to throw the green out, but you can usually see what's going on.

[The Wookie]

Drumroll said:

As I alluded to earlier the problem is defining that area.

As far as our clerks go it usually seems to be effectively an invisible line across the track drawn from the marshals post

[Drumroll]

The Wookie said:

Drumroll said:

As I alluded to earlier the problem is defining that area.

As far as our clerks go it usually seems to be effectively an invisible line across the track drawn from the marshals post

But that line isn't always at a right angle to the track from the post. It also depends on who has the best "line of sight"

Taking the incident we are talking about post 11 under the bridge has very limited views looking back up the track, it also would find it difficult to determine what was happening on the approach to post12 so the observer on 12 is more likely to report any "transgressions" on the approach to 12 than 11 will although it is in effect before his post.

[The Wookie]

Drumroll said:

But that line isn't always at a right angle to the track from the post. It also depends on who has the best "line of sight"

Taking the incident we are talking about post 11 under the bridge has very limited views looking back up the track, it also would find it difficult to determine what was happening on the approach to post12 so the observer on 12 is more likely to report any "transgressions" on the approach to 12 than 11 will although it is in effect before his post.

Only going based on what I've experienced. Ultimately the line has to be drawn somewhere and you're dealing with a grid full of drivers and teams who will push everything (track limits, driving standards, yellow flags, etc etc) to the absolute limit of the rules lest someone else get an advantage over them.

[Speed Badger]

Plus touring car drivers don't adhere to the blue book rules, they've got special needs

[The Wookie]

Typically it’s just the driving into eachother bit that we need special exemptions for