Discussion
I'm not starting this to reignite the Max and Lewis debate, there are other threads for that, but I'm just interested to hear the views of fellow fans.
Personally I think the downsides of these kerbs far outweigh the benefits of having them. I get that they are there to stop drivers using parts of the circuit they shouldn't but all they ever seem to really do is cause cars to bounce uncontrollably, often increasing the severity of the accident.
Taking last weekend as an example, I think the accident would have happened either way (not the debate here), but I think the sausage kerb being there meant Max's car was bounced more severely towards Lewis and was a factor in the cars ending up one on top of the other.
Alex Peroni's accident also shows how a minor incident of running wide was amplified into an accident he was lucky to walk away from. https://youtu.be/8qIJkIM8d3o
For all the push to make the cars safer (which I applaud), these kerbs seem to have snuck in under the radar, they are a poor solution to a minor problem. We have track limits and penalties that deal with these situations without endangering anyone, what benefit do these kerbs add.
You could have a high normal kerb that drops away at the same rate the other side, so if you run too wide you are getting beached or damaging the underside of your car without being bounced dangerously off line. Alternatively a small gravel trap could do a similar job.
Surely with all the brilliant minds involved in Motorsport a better solution can be found before somebody gets very badly hurt.
Personally I think the downsides of these kerbs far outweigh the benefits of having them. I get that they are there to stop drivers using parts of the circuit they shouldn't but all they ever seem to really do is cause cars to bounce uncontrollably, often increasing the severity of the accident.
Taking last weekend as an example, I think the accident would have happened either way (not the debate here), but I think the sausage kerb being there meant Max's car was bounced more severely towards Lewis and was a factor in the cars ending up one on top of the other.
Alex Peroni's accident also shows how a minor incident of running wide was amplified into an accident he was lucky to walk away from. https://youtu.be/8qIJkIM8d3o
For all the push to make the cars safer (which I applaud), these kerbs seem to have snuck in under the radar, they are a poor solution to a minor problem. We have track limits and penalties that deal with these situations without endangering anyone, what benefit do these kerbs add.
You could have a high normal kerb that drops away at the same rate the other side, so if you run too wide you are getting beached or damaging the underside of your car without being bounced dangerously off line. Alternatively a small gravel trap could do a similar job.
Surely with all the brilliant minds involved in Motorsport a better solution can be found before somebody gets very badly hurt.
Whilst the drive to make the cars & tracks safer is to be applauded and must continue the outcome has been that certain drivers well actually one in particular thinks he can play dodgem cars rather than use race craft to try and win as the risk has been lowered in certain situations.
There has to be a risk (not of bodily harm) but of a penalty be that beaching as you do in gravel or damage as with the sausage kerbs otherwise every situation becomes a do or die late lunge especially when you don't care about punting the other car & driver off the track.
What we saw the other weekend was the worst of all worlds but that was down to that driver not the kerbs, he had options but decided he was entitled to do whatever he likes and you can't design tracks or even cars around that mind set.
There has to be a risk (not of bodily harm) but of a penalty be that beaching as you do in gravel or damage as with the sausage kerbs otherwise every situation becomes a do or die late lunge especially when you don't care about punting the other car & driver off the track.
What we saw the other weekend was the worst of all worlds but that was down to that driver not the kerbs, he had options but decided he was entitled to do whatever he likes and you can't design tracks or even cars around that mind set.
Avoiding "the incident we won't talk about here", there's a good escape road on entry, an escape route partway through, speeds through the corner itself are low, and there's a lot of time to be gained if you just cut the inside of the exit.
Perfect place to put a big, chunky kerb to prevent drivers from cutting the corner, taking the place, and hoping to either get away with it or argue about it later. Arguably better than a gravel trap, which would end a driver's race if they take avoiding action, or drag a load of gravel onto a high-speed section if someone goes through and rejoins.
It's not the answer for every corner, but it is for that one.
Perfect place to put a big, chunky kerb to prevent drivers from cutting the corner, taking the place, and hoping to either get away with it or argue about it later. Arguably better than a gravel trap, which would end a driver's race if they take avoiding action, or drag a load of gravel onto a high-speed section if someone goes through and rejoins.
It's not the answer for every corner, but it is for that one.
First time I have seen that footage, Jesus Christ it near enough fired the car vertical.
I agree there has to be a better solution to this. One for example would be a loss of the battery power for a lap. Keep re offending next time it’s 2 laps, time after that 3 laps. Something that has a real lap time penalty.
I agree there has to be a better solution to this. One for example would be a loss of the battery power for a lap. Keep re offending next time it’s 2 laps, time after that 3 laps. Something that has a real lap time penalty.
Motorsport is dangerous. There needs to be some jeopardy. Whether it's sausage kerbs, or gravel traps, or solid walls, I'll always much rather see the circuit punish drivers for mistakes than let them drive wherever they want with stewards applying time penalties after the fact. And if the drivers don't like them they don't have to drive over them.
patmahe said:
Alex Peroni's accident also shows how a minor incident of running wide was amplified into an accident he was lucky to walk away from. https://youtu.be/8qIJkIM8d3o
Sausage Roll?Lots of talk about how these deterrents are designed to push the driver to avoid them (also known as staying within track limits...) And of course the drivers can avoid them.
But, why sausage curbs in the first place? What's wrong with a metre of grass followed by a gravel trap? The sport had decades of experience with this simple and punishing deterrent - wayward cars are punished reliably and safely. Why was this ever replaced with anything that offers the same level of deterrent but a much greater chance of danger?
So I accept that deterrents are a good idea - but what exactly is the argument in favour of choosing a crude sausage kerb as the manner of deterrent?
Only bad things happen when an F1 car is detached from Terra Firma.
But, why sausage curbs in the first place? What's wrong with a metre of grass followed by a gravel trap? The sport had decades of experience with this simple and punishing deterrent - wayward cars are punished reliably and safely. Why was this ever replaced with anything that offers the same level of deterrent but a much greater chance of danger?
So I accept that deterrents are a good idea - but what exactly is the argument in favour of choosing a crude sausage kerb as the manner of deterrent?
Only bad things happen when an F1 car is detached from Terra Firma.
I think the reason the more aggressive kerbs were introduced is that the fans complained about results being decided in the stewards room rather than on the track... the FIA can't win really.
I think some sort of automated system so if the car leaves the track the engines power is reduced slightly would work if it could be done safely - maybe another, different coloured light on the back to warn other drivers. And once they have that, start enforcing track limits properly rather than the current random "you have to stay on track here but can run off track there" approach.
I think some sort of automated system so if the car leaves the track the engines power is reduced slightly would work if it could be done safely - maybe another, different coloured light on the back to warn other drivers. And once they have that, start enforcing track limits properly rather than the current random "you have to stay on track here but can run off track there" approach.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 18th September 14:46
kambites said:
I think the reason the more aggressive kerbs were introduced is that the fans complained about results being decided in the stewards room rather than on the track... the FIA can't win really.
I think some sort of automated system so if the car leaves the track the engines power is reduced slightly would work if it could be done safely - maybe another, different coloured light on the back to warn other drivers. And once they have that, start enforcing track limits properly rather than the current random "you have to stay on track here but can run off track there" approach.
I agree with the power drop idea, ive long supported it.I think some sort of automated system so if the car leaves the track the engines power is reduced slightly would work if it could be done safely - maybe another, different coloured light on the back to warn other drivers. And once they have that, start enforcing track limits properly rather than the current random "you have to stay on track here but can run off track there" approach.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 18th September 14:46
I still don't see the argument for the kerbs though. Yes, they create an instant penalty so no ambiguity for the stewards to deal with... But so does getting beached in gravel - yet it's far safer.
Even max recently said the answer to track limits 'confusion' was to put gravel there. He's the biggest deliberate offender, why not simply go with his solution!?
I Still think my puddles idea would solve this.
A one meter wide long strip of water, then tarmac to regain grip, only needs to be a few inches deep, car goes through, tyres cool a bit, slight but not race ending punishment. No damage. No beaching. And it'd look well cool at racing speed. Can be left empty for series it's undesirable eg bikes - I think it's the bikes that dictate the undesirability of gravel isn't it, thus tarmac + removable sausage kerbs?
Tell me why I'm wrong.
A one meter wide long strip of water, then tarmac to regain grip, only needs to be a few inches deep, car goes through, tyres cool a bit, slight but not race ending punishment. No damage. No beaching. And it'd look well cool at racing speed. Can be left empty for series it's undesirable eg bikes - I think it's the bikes that dictate the undesirability of gravel isn't it, thus tarmac + removable sausage kerbs?
Tell me why I'm wrong.
Teddy Lop said:
I Still think my puddles idea would solve this.
A one meter wide long strip of water, then tarmac to regain grip, only needs to be a few inches deep, car goes through, tyres cool a bit, slight but not race ending punishment. No damage. No beaching. And it'd look well cool at racing speed. Can be left empty for series it's undesirable eg bikes - I think it's the bikes that dictate the undesirability of gravel isn't it, thus tarmac + removable sausage kerbs?
Tell me why I'm wrong.
Shallow strip of water + elevation changes = impossible. A one meter wide long strip of water, then tarmac to regain grip, only needs to be a few inches deep, car goes through, tyres cool a bit, slight but not race ending punishment. No damage. No beaching. And it'd look well cool at racing speed. Can be left empty for series it's undesirable eg bikes - I think it's the bikes that dictate the undesirability of gravel isn't it, thus tarmac + removable sausage kerbs?
Tell me why I'm wrong.
Flooble said:
TheDeuce said:
Shallow strip of water + elevation changes = impossible.
Baffles!Unless they're very weak kerbs that will give way - but then all the water sods off and you having nothing.
Also the ancillary M&E to maintain a constant 'as signed off' water level throughout the weekend.
And I'm still at a loss to how water is better than grass or kerbs better than gravel. Just use a bit of grass to all but guarantee the driver becomes a passenger if he dares to to exceed limits - and then gravel to collect him and his car once he has. There are decades of examples of that solution being very effective and above average safe compared to any other obstacle.
Yeah but an existing solution is no fun.
Plus was it Mexico where Max just drove straight across the grass from turn 1 to turn 3 and hence overtook Vettel? So it won't always stop them anyway.
Oooh, we could make it a waterfall - like an ornamental water feature, pump the water from top to bottom continuously. The more complicated the solution the better!
Otherwise some stinger strips would do the job as far as I'm concerned ...
Plus was it Mexico where Max just drove straight across the grass from turn 1 to turn 3 and hence overtook Vettel? So it won't always stop them anyway.
Oooh, we could make it a waterfall - like an ornamental water feature, pump the water from top to bottom continuously. The more complicated the solution the better!
Otherwise some stinger strips would do the job as far as I'm concerned ...
TheDeuce said:
I still don't see the argument for the kerbs though. Yes, they create an instant penalty so no ambiguity for the stewards to deal with... But so does getting beached in gravel - yet it's far safer.
Does gravel work on the inside of corners where only the unloaded wheel is compromised? The Monza Turn 2 apex kerb needs to be bigger, so that even the silliest of drivers takes the escape road rather than run over it. The problem is, as the cars get safer over time, the drivers get sillier and more willing to take risks.
No, they should never have left the sausage kerb on the outside of Parabolica - sadly Peroni’s accident was inevitable, and should really have been foreseen by whoever designed and approved it. Thankfully they removed it straight away when Peroni crashed, before any more drivers ended up in the hospital.
No, they should never have left the sausage kerb on the outside of Parabolica - sadly Peroni’s accident was inevitable, and should really have been foreseen by whoever designed and approved it. Thankfully they removed it straight away when Peroni crashed, before any more drivers ended up in the hospital.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff