Small & cool 5.1 receiver/decoder

[PhilboSE]

Hi all, I am after something which will take an HDMI input and do the usual jobs of video pass through to HDMI and provide amplified 5.1 outputs. I don’t need much power - 30W per channel should be fine. However I don’t want something as traditionally bulky as an AV receiver, I’d like it as small as possible and it’s going to be in a confined space (though with some air vents) so something that runs cool and as small as possible would be good.

Anyone know of such a thing at the cheaper end of the market?

[Lucid_AV]

Have a look at the Marantz NR series receivers, new or used. The NR15xx range is 5.1 and well specified for something half the height of a traditional AVR.

These use Class-D amps so they run more efficient and cooler than traditional Class AB. You will still need to ensure you follow the manual recommendations though for ventilation.

[Mr Pointy]

You could try a HDMI audio extractor & then use a separate amplifier which might give you more choice. There are a bunch of them on Amazon with some punting out 5.1 audio over Toslink:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HDMI-Audio-Extractor/s?k=...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/HDMI-Audio-Extractor-60Hz...

The one linked to has some good reviews, although I'm surprised it's allowed to strip out HDCP.

[PhilboSE]

Thanks both, the Marantz NR is a bit more £££ and a bit more mm than I would like. Not averse to a separates solution, that would allow for some multi-channel Class D amps (e.g. car ICE solutions) but an integrated solution would be more ideal. At the least I must admit it would be possible to find something which would do the HDMI in/out and audio decoding with 5.1 pre-outs but I can't seem to find such a thing.

[Lucid_AV]

PhilboSE said:

Thanks both, the Marantz NR is a bit more £££ and a bit more mm than I would like. Not averse to a separates solution, that would allow for some multi-channel Class D amps (e.g. car ICE solutions) but an integrated solution would be more ideal. At the least I must admit it would be possible to find something which would do the HDMI in/out and audio decoding with 5.1 pre-outs but I can't seem to find such a thing.

Can't do much about the mms, but a s/h NR would give you the all-in-one solution with HDMI and built-in decoding that you seek at under £200.

Cobbling together a hotch-potch solution with some kind of audio extractor plus ICE amps is messy and fraught with hidden issues. Think about volume control for a start, then channel balance for the speaker levels, then channel balance tracking as volume changes, and of course, lip sync. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

You could well end up spending as much or more on a pile of boxes that is a nightmare to use compared to just hitting the nail on the head with the right solution from the word go.

The reason why you can't find an exact off-the-shelf solution is because it sits in a no-man's land.

The small size is attractive, but the price is too high compared to all-in-one HT kits, and also too closely priced to proper AV receivers. At the same time, the small size results in several compromises which limits both the features and the performance.

Usually, these things start life as the main unit from a home cinema all-in-one kit which then gets modified to ba a standalone unit. Samsung have done them. LG and Sony too. The last one I saw in the UK though was from Pioneer. Richers had bought a load on a clearance deal. That's one of their things. They were selling out at £200 each if memory serves. Even at that they looked a little pricey.

[Red 5]

I see this from time to time.
Unique spec request, with in inappropriate budget and ‘end user’ grade planning caused issus.

When you dig into it a bit, it’s sometimes possible to extract the actual brief, then apply a suitable solution, that would never have been considered.

A sure fire sign of the above…..
They think it’s strange that such a thing doesn’t exist. Because THEY want it to.
They are defensive of the rational that lead to this unicorn like low cost spec.
They think some super cheap converters and gadgets from the internet will fix it,


I expect there is a better solution, that renders these issues moot.
With zero clue about why this spec was arrived at, it’s impossible to help. Every possible solution will be met with a new previously undisclosed objection.

I would have suggested the HEOS AVR. as it’s super slim, but has capable amplification and general capabilities. It meets the requirements, but I noticed budget was mentioned in relation to the cheapest solution Marantz offer.

So in the interests of finding a suitable solution……
What is the FULL list of items that will comprise the rest of the system. Sources, display, speakers makes and model numbers.
Pictures and sketches of location and room layout, including all adjoining rooms and spaces are vital.
What is the maximum budget stated as an exact number, is a suitable amount to spend on achieving the desired goals?

It would be nice to help with solutions, if some information can be gathered

[PhilboSE]

Red 5 said:

I see this from time to time.
Unique spec request, with in inappropriate budget and ‘end user’ grade planning caused issus.

When you dig into it a bit, it’s sometimes possible to extract the actual brief, then apply a suitable solution, that would never have been considered.

A sure fire sign of the above…..
They think it’s strange that such a thing doesn’t exist. Because THEY want it to.
They are defensive of the rational that lead to this unicorn like low cost spec.
They think some super cheap converters and gadgets from the internet will fix it,

Well, thanks for the slightly patronising opening. Just FYI, I have put together three 7.4.2 cinema rooms in my own houses, with a budget of over £40k on the last one. So I'm not exactly a noob at this, however I do recognise that my requirements are slightly unusual at this lower end, which is why I asked for help.

So that you have some insight into my reasoning, I am aware that "all in one" systems exist like the Sony BDV-E2100. These have a BD transport, HDMI inputs, sound decoding, multi-channel Class D amplification AND a 5.1 speaker system, in this example for £260. I had one of these some years ago for a tertiary TV room where I just wanted better sound, and for the money they give a significant improvement over the tiny speakers in any flat screen TV.

So what I thought I was after is a box like the main unit of the BDV-E2100, but without the BD transport. It didn't seem such a ridiculous idea to wonder if such a thing was out there, after all in the world of a million soundbars there was always the possibility. My logic went: if Sony can retail the above for £260 then something without the BD transport and speakers might be available for less?

Red 5 said:

I expect there is a better solution, that renders these issues moot.
With zero clue about why this spec was arrived at, it’s impossible to help. Every possible solution will be met with a new previously undisclosed objection.

I would have suggested the HEOS AVR. as it’s super slim, but has capable amplification and general capabilities. It meets the requirements, but I noticed budget was mentioned in relation to the cheapest solution Marantz offer.

So in the interests of finding a suitable solution……
What is the FULL list of items that will comprise the rest of the system. Sources, display, speakers makes and model numbers.
Pictures and sketches of location and room layout, including all adjoining rooms and spaces are vital.
What is the maximum budget stated as an exact number, is a suitable amount to spend on achieving the desired goals?

It would be nice to help with solutions, if some information can be gathered

OK, here's the grisly details.

I am putting a gym together in a garden room I am building, 6m x 5m. It is a standalone building. I will have a flat screen TV on the wall. I have some old, but perfectly functional, 5.1 speakers I will be using in the room (Focal Sib XL). I have prewired the room appropriately (and put in for 4 Atmos feeds for futureproofing, although I don't intend to use them).

The source will be an Amazon Fire TV cube which we can use in the gym to play music (via Amazon Music), or watch media from Prime, Netflix or Kodi. This is so there is something to listen/watch while working out, the room won't be used to "watch" media - just to have something on in the background. A bit like a Bluetooth speaker for a phone, but upscaled for the size of room. Ultimate sound quality and power is not a primary concern here - it just has to b "good enough" for the purpose.

So, traditionally, an AV receiver would do the job I'm after and I would probably just buy whatever cheapo special offer Richer Sounds had...except that AV receivers run hot and are bulky. I don't really want to have something as big as an AV receiver in the room and on show. I am building a cabinet to house the electrical consumer unit, lighting connections, LED transformers, ethernet router & wifi extender etc., all wall mounted. This cabinet will be quite large but also shallow - about 1700mm wide, 800mm high but only about 300mm deep. Something to accommodate the depth of a traditional AV receiver will project too much into the room and use up too much floor space.

There you have it, a single source, with undemanding amplification requirements and ultimate fidelity not a real issue. Something like a Marantz NR might work if it is happy to be wall mounted, though a quick look on eBay shows s/h examples that look as if they've been shot at by a 12-gauge.

In terms of budgets, there isn't an absolute, I will spend whatever is necessary to get something that does the job, but based on the Sony example quoted above I was hoping a couple of hundred £ would do it.

[Lucid_AV]

PhilboSE said:

OK, here's the grisly details.

I am putting a gym together in a garden room I am building, 6m x 5m. It is a standalone building. I will have a flat screen TV on the wall. I have some old, but perfectly functional, 5.1 speakers I will be using in the room (Focal Sib XL). I have prewired the room appropriately (and put in for 4 Atmos feeds for futureproofing, although I don't intend to use them).

The source will be an Amazon Fire TV cube which we can use in the gym to play music (via Amazon Music), or watch media from Prime, Netflix or Kodi. This is so there is something to listen/watch while working out, the room won't be used to "watch" media - just to have something on in the background. A bit like a Bluetooth speaker for a phone, but upscaled for the size of room. Ultimate sound quality and power is not a primary concern here - it just has to b "good enough" for the purpose.

So, traditionally, an AV receiver would do the job I'm after and I would probably just buy whatever cheapo special offer Richer Sounds had...except that AV receivers run hot and are bulky. I don't really want to have something as big as an AV receiver in the room and on show. I am building a cabinet to house the electrical consumer unit, lighting connections, LED transformers, ethernet router & wifi extender etc., all wall mounted. This cabinet will be quite large but also shallow - about 1700mm wide, 800mm high but only about 300mm deep. Something to accommodate the depth of a traditional AV receiver will project too much into the room and use up too much floor space.

There you have it, a single source, with undemanding amplification requirements and ultimate fidelity not a real issue. Something like a Marantz NR might work if it is happy to be wall mounted, though a quick look on eBay shows s/h examples that look as if they've been shot at by a 12-gauge.

In terms of budgets, there isn't an absolute, I will spend whatever is necessary to get something that does the job, but based on the Sony example quoted above I was hoping a couple of hundred £ would do it.

On the face of it your request seems reasonable. The things that shoot holes in the logic though are the consumer appetite for such a solution, and the economies of scale and competitive nature of the consumer goods that made it possible for Sony to sell a BDV-E2100 for £260.

An added complication is the fashion for streaming in general and soundbars at the lower end of the market has combined to demolish the demand for all-in-one HC systems with disc playback features such as that BDV-E2100.

That Sony launched something like six or seven years ago. When it was first out you'd have had a choice of maybe a dozen or more different models under £300. Sony, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Hitachi etc all had models vying for space on the shelves at Currys. Take a look today at the difference. Most brands have either scaled back significantly or pulled out all together. Samsung stopped production of DVD and BD players and all disc-based surround systems last year. The market isn't worth the effort.

There's also a technical reason why a disc-less BDV-E2100-type device isn't available.

Amplifiers work by raising a voltage across the speaker terminals. The speaker responds by trying to move the voice coil in the magnetic field. This is how the driver cone moves to produce sound. For this to work, there has to be a supply of energy in the form of an electrical current. What this means is that the speaker sucks current from the amp.

In very simplistic terms, the amount of current being drawn depends on the voltage across the speaker terminals and the impedance of the speaker. Higher Ohm speakers such as your Focal Sib XLs are 8 Ohms. The sorts of speakers commonly used in all-in-one kits are much lower Ohms. Your Sony kit used 3 Ohm speakers. Lower Ohm speakers draw more current; a lot more. Setting aside the finer details of amps specs for a moment, a 30W 8 Ohm stereo amp playing out at full volume in to some 8 Ohm speakers would pull about 2 amps of current. Swap to the 3 Ohm speakers and the current shoots up to 5 amps.

Right now you're thinking "well, if the Sony amp can deliver that much current then it must be good, right?". What's missing from the picture is the voltage. The sort of low cost switch mode (class-D) amps used in home cinema kits are good at delivering current but poor at raising voltage. In order to get the 3 Ohm speaker playing in this example requires about 9V. Swapping the speaker to an 8 Ohm, the voltage needed is 19V.

Sticking 8 Ohm rated speaker on a 3 Ohm rated amp means that the amps voltage limit will be reached very quickly. Instead of delivering 30W to the speakers it will top out at around 12W. Then, because the power supply voltage rails are maxed out, the amp will distort, and in distorting it will throw a lot of harmonic distortion in to the speakers, and that will in turn cause the tweeters to fry. Buh-bye speaker.

ETA; Making a class-D amp with the sort of power rails required for a lot of swing voltage to put a healthy potential difference across some speaker terminals isn't complicated. Sonos has been doing it for almost 20 years with its standalone amplified products. However, it is expensive relatively if it is to be consistent, and perform adequately, and be reliable.

That's why there isn't a cheaper version of the BDV-E2100.

Edited by Lucid_AV on Sunday 8th August 17:54

[PhilboSE]

Lucid_AV said:

Stuff

Thanks, I was going to look at the driving capabilities of any suggestions made to determine an appropriate set of speakers - I have some low-ohm speakers as well. As it happens I have one of the old Panasonic all-in-1 systems running somewhere, what I can do is re-purpose this for the gym and pair my Focals with a traditional cheapo receiver in the room currently running the Panasonic system. This was always an option I had in mind, but it was worth asking the question if there was anything better.

[srappy]

Mini AV receivers do exist but I'm not aware of any at the cheaper end of the market.

2 that come to mind are the Artison Nano Backpack P5 and the Episode Mini 5.1 AVR.

However, it's highly likely that you'll need a custom integrator to source, configure and install as I think they are designed to be used with a control system in mind (e.g. something like Control4). This will obviously come at a price but it shows that it can be done.

[PhilboSE]

srappy said:

Mini AV receivers do exist but I'm not aware of any at the cheaper end of the market.

2 that come to mind are the Artison Nano Backpack P5 and the Episode Mini 5.1 AVR.

However, it's highly likely that you'll need a custom integrator to source, configure and install as I think they are designed to be used with a control system in mind (e.g. something like Control4). This will obviously come at a price but it shows that it can be done.

Cheers, as it happens, I do have a Control4 system as part of the main home cinema rig, I also have a spare Control4 slave unit of some kind, but it's all overkill for what I want.

Thinking about it a bit more, in the world of streaming (where increasingly many streams have surround sound encoded) it's a bit surprising that there isn't any consumer demand for a low-end all-in-1 system but without the disc spinner, given there was demand in the DVD/BD era. Maybe entry level AV receivers and mini satellite speakers sets are cheap enough now not to need them - or that market is now served by soundbars.

[Lucid_AV]

PhilboSE said:

Thinking about it a bit more, in the world of streaming (where increasingly many streams have surround sound encoded) it's a bit surprising that there isn't any consumer demand for a low-end all-in-1 system but without the disc spinner, given there was demand in the DVD/BD era. Maybe entry level AV receivers and mini satellite speakers sets are cheap enough now not to need them - or that market is now served by soundbars.

That niche is filled by the soundbar; either using some form of bounced sound for surrounds or wirelessly linked satellite speakers, or both.

The mass-market demand has moved away from wired surround speakers, even if that means more cost and worse performance.

Edited by Lucid_AV on Monday 9th August 01:25

[Sporky]

Looking at this another way; is there any value in running this 5.1?

Simpler to take a stereo out of the TV (I assume the Fire cube doesn't have analogue out) into a decent small amp and drive 4 of the speakers in two parallel pairs. I'd go crossed stereo by default.

Just a suggestion for consideration.

[alock]

You can buy a board that is probably similar to the internals of most of the cheap systems

https://m.banggood.com/TPA3116-Power-Amplifier-Aud...

[PhilboSE]

Sporky said:

Looking at this another way; is there any value in running this 5.1?

Yes, the streaming services have good support for multichannel audio and my film library is ripped natively, so seems a shame to lose all that fidelity.

[Sporky]

PhilboSE said:

Sporky said:

Looking at this another way; is there any value in running this 5.1?

Yes, the streaming services have good support for multichannel audio and my film library is ripped natively, so seems a shame to lose all that fidelity.

Fair enough - I was just going by this:

"the room won't be used to "watch" media - just to have something on in the background"

To be fair I'm not that much into surround anyway, but in a space where you're after background audio rather than critical listening (for want of a better term) I'd ditch the complexity of a surround system and go for basic room-filling at decent quality.

[conkerman]

If you are using an external source for streaming.and are not interested in 4K, I have a Marantz NR1402 and 5x B&W M-1 speakers with feet and wall mounts.

Add a Sub and it's a pretty tidy system. The B&W's are better than they should be for music.

Alternatively YOLO and NAD T778.