N53 Rough idle/hesitation cured...
Discussion
...for now.
My 2009 525i had been having issues with lumpy idle and hesitation/shivering when running
An initial sniff test on the plugs when I got it revealed injector 2 was shot, and was replaced with a new series 11 one before Christmas.
Hesitation carried on, and misfires on cylinder 5 / bank 2 running rich error codes pointed at another injector being needed.
With that swapped yesterday I have now experienced a drive where the car starts smoothly, and continues to drive smoothly, and doesn't throw a cel.
Mpg had plummeted from 24 to 21 mph (short urban trips) so maybe I need a longer run to see what it will do.
Bimmerprofs recommends to reset adaptations, though as INPA continues to play silly buggers and not work, this will have to wait, as will registering the injectors.
I know some advocate swapping all 6 injectors, but frankly I couldn't face it on a car that is frankly one rung above being a shed.
I doubt I'll get the petrol saving back on the £500 worth of injectors sacrificed to the BMW gods, but didn't want the rich running to cause further problems with cats, sensors or oil contamination.
Ian
My 2009 525i had been having issues with lumpy idle and hesitation/shivering when running
An initial sniff test on the plugs when I got it revealed injector 2 was shot, and was replaced with a new series 11 one before Christmas.
Hesitation carried on, and misfires on cylinder 5 / bank 2 running rich error codes pointed at another injector being needed.
With that swapped yesterday I have now experienced a drive where the car starts smoothly, and continues to drive smoothly, and doesn't throw a cel.
Mpg had plummeted from 24 to 21 mph (short urban trips) so maybe I need a longer run to see what it will do.
Bimmerprofs recommends to reset adaptations, though as INPA continues to play silly buggers and not work, this will have to wait, as will registering the injectors.
I know some advocate swapping all 6 injectors, but frankly I couldn't face it on a car that is frankly one rung above being a shed.
I doubt I'll get the petrol saving back on the £500 worth of injectors sacrificed to the BMW gods, but didn't want the rich running to cause further problems with cats, sensors or oil contamination.
Ian
Well I spoke too soon 
A run out earlier today saw the car return to hesitation and intermittent cel come back.
I sometimes run torque lite via a Bluetooth dongle, and I can see my two oxygen sensors rarely see eye to eye.
Of course, I don't know if this is the sensors that are bad (and if so, which one?) Or whether the sensors are faithfully reporting oxygen conditions, but it's the conditions that are screwed up.
Here's a selection of images (but I can only take screenshots when stationery.
This is quite usual for my car: one pinging up and down whilst the other remains fully rich
Here: they completely disagreed with each other
And here one was gradually dropping whilst the other remained.
A run out earlier today saw the car return to hesitation and intermittent cel come back.
I sometimes run torque lite via a Bluetooth dongle, and I can see my two oxygen sensors rarely see eye to eye.
Of course, I don't know if this is the sensors that are bad (and if so, which one?) Or whether the sensors are faithfully reporting oxygen conditions, but it's the conditions that are screwed up.
Here's a selection of images (but I can only take screenshots when stationery.
This is quite usual for my car: one pinging up and down whilst the other remains fully rich
Here: they completely disagreed with each other
And here one was gradually dropping whilst the other remained.
Morning both
Thank you for the replies.
I think my plan has to be another push at getting inpa to work, so I can actually get more information.
I had it reading error codes ok up til April, but trying to go into the fuel module hit a sys 0005 object file not found problem, which was a whole new rabbit hole to get lost down.
I tried re installing it all, only for it to not even connect to the car!
I was toying with buying either a specific scan tool that can handle this stuff, or maybe a laptop that comes with inpa pre loaded, but as ever just not got round to sifting through reviews and forum posts to separate the good from the bad.
I didn't know bimmer profs offered diagnosis...I know they like to sell their noxem solution, but assuming I get inpa going and some data together, that might be a good call.
Thank you for the replies.
I think my plan has to be another push at getting inpa to work, so I can actually get more information.
I had it reading error codes ok up til April, but trying to go into the fuel module hit a sys 0005 object file not found problem, which was a whole new rabbit hole to get lost down.
I tried re installing it all, only for it to not even connect to the car!
I was toying with buying either a specific scan tool that can handle this stuff, or maybe a laptop that comes with inpa pre loaded, but as ever just not got round to sifting through reviews and forum posts to separate the good from the bad.
I didn't know bimmer profs offered diagnosis...I know they like to sell their noxem solution, but assuming I get inpa going and some data together, that might be a good call.
Well, a bit of an update. After a busy few weeks at work I'm on holiday today so had a go getting inpa going on a different computer, which has worked better.
I made it into the rough running section, which shows I think clear problems with injectors 4 and 6
(I have already replaced injector 2 before xmas, and injector 5 a month or so ago).
QUESTION: are the cylinder numbers shown in INPA the actual cylinder numbers from the rad (1) to bulkhead (6)? I've heard some things that they might be in firing order rather than physical order.
It's not showing here, but shortly after the this screen shot the o2 voltages were poles apart too, which I think is the o2 sensor working correctly, but injector 4 and 6 pissing fuel into the engine.
The error list is here, though I think this is showing legacy codes right back to when I had ABS hiccups from unplugging the abs roof warning light, and wheel speed issues when I spun the wheels jacked up.
now, tomorrow am we head on a 350 mile trip from Surrey to Yorks. I'm not sure I'm quite ready yet to reset the adaptations, so it looks like it will be 21mpg all the way there (or one tank of fuel basically).
I'll get 2 more #11 injectors and put them in (removing the valve cover takes longer than actually swapping them over!) then have a look at the adaptation process after that.
Ian
I made it into the rough running section, which shows I think clear problems with injectors 4 and 6
(I have already replaced injector 2 before xmas, and injector 5 a month or so ago).
QUESTION: are the cylinder numbers shown in INPA the actual cylinder numbers from the rad (1) to bulkhead (6)? I've heard some things that they might be in firing order rather than physical order.
It's not showing here, but shortly after the this screen shot the o2 voltages were poles apart too, which I think is the o2 sensor working correctly, but injector 4 and 6 pissing fuel into the engine.
The error list is here, though I think this is showing legacy codes right back to when I had ABS hiccups from unplugging the abs roof warning light, and wheel speed issues when I spun the wheels jacked up.
now, tomorrow am we head on a 350 mile trip from Surrey to Yorks. I'm not sure I'm quite ready yet to reset the adaptations, so it looks like it will be 21mpg all the way there (or one tank of fuel basically).
I'll get 2 more #11 injectors and put them in (removing the valve cover takes longer than actually swapping them over!) then have a look at the adaptation process after that.
Ian
Slight update: deleted the inpa I got on a cd as it didn't cope with the n53 engine at all.
After a bit of trawling, and a couple of false starts trying to update the version I had, I found this excellent post which included a coherent guide and access to inpa files
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12...
After a couple of hours swearing at the pc, I got it working properly and can finally get into the engine modules of inpa.
The error report showed misfires in 2 cylinders, so I am putting new injectors in those (that will make 4 new injectors).
Now that I can code them, I will try clearing the adaptations and seeing if that can enable the stratified mode to engage.
It should also hopefully cure the rough idle on warm start, and hitting cel /power loss after a bit of heavy accelerating (I think the mixture control error code causes the ECU to get confused about differing O2 levels coming from each bank).
Ian
After a bit of trawling, and a couple of false starts trying to update the version I had, I found this excellent post which included a coherent guide and access to inpa files
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12...
After a couple of hours swearing at the pc, I got it working properly and can finally get into the engine modules of inpa.
The error report showed misfires in 2 cylinders, so I am putting new injectors in those (that will make 4 new injectors).
Now that I can code them, I will try clearing the adaptations and seeing if that can enable the stratified mode to engage.
It should also hopefully cure the rough idle on warm start, and hitting cel /power loss after a bit of heavy accelerating (I think the mixture control error code causes the ECU to get confused about differing O2 levels coming from each bank).
Ian
Evening all
Time for an update. Sorry g3org3y, didn't see your reply.
I sourced the cable from Amazon (came with a CD ROM) for £26. The cable was white if that helps. Tried not go get drawn into the cable shack worm hole.
As it turns out, the cd software, my computer and me didn't get on too well. I ended up borrowing my kids newish laptop and just downloading a fresh set of inpa files from a link on the e90post forum.
I had already worked out how to download, unpack and get the computer to look at the ftdi drivers needed for the usb cable to work, but that was hours of agro in itself.
So, I didn't have to go and source an "inpa ready" laptop from eBay, which I'm grateful for because of the cash saving and generally liking to get things done myself. (Plus I just know it wouldn't have worked)
So, this weekend I finished putting two more injectors into the n53 (525i) and new spark plugs across the board for good measure. That's 4 new injectors now (index 11) in the cylinders recording misfires.
Onto adaptations.
I'm not sure I did it right. Reset them (set 2? Bimmerprofs didn't mention 2 sets). Drive gently for a bit. Stopped to check inpa, cleared any errors, drove a bit more. I can't really tell what it did, as there's no way I can watch inpa whilst driving!
Also, oddly, my torque lite app via Bluetooth registered zero activity on both lambda sensors.. Usually they're busy disagreeing with each other, but tonight obviously had other plans. So I couldn't use this method to see if lambda reading were in stratified mode.
What I can say is:
A) rough running has completely gone. Starts (both cold and warm) nice and smooth tickover, no lumpiness at all)
B) I brimmed it (99 Ron) and did a steady 30 ish miles up and down the M23, then brimmed it again.
Totals were:
28.3 miles
2.35 litres of fuel to brim it, makes....wait for it
12.04 litres per mile.
(Or, in English, 54.6mpg!)
I couldn't believe it. Ok, this was a steady 65mph with aircon off, but I'd never even got it over 24mpg with steady driving before.
Furthermore, the fuel trip computer has convinced itself I will get the following amount of miles from the tank!
Which is a clear 100 miles higher than anything seen before.
So, all in all I am pretty happy tonight. I have blanked out of my mind how much the injectors cost (along with the decoupler rings) and I guess the final 2 cylinders are a "when not if" thing, so I might as well just buy them now before they go up in price any more.
I should mention I've had no nox errors or cat ageing errors during all of this, so was pretty sure it was injector related.
With the engine behaving itself, I can now move onto step 2 of this car which is it's less than surgical handling, but that I think will be a new thread.
Ian
Time for an update. Sorry g3org3y, didn't see your reply.
I sourced the cable from Amazon (came with a CD ROM) for £26. The cable was white if that helps. Tried not go get drawn into the cable shack worm hole.
As it turns out, the cd software, my computer and me didn't get on too well. I ended up borrowing my kids newish laptop and just downloading a fresh set of inpa files from a link on the e90post forum.
I had already worked out how to download, unpack and get the computer to look at the ftdi drivers needed for the usb cable to work, but that was hours of agro in itself.
So, I didn't have to go and source an "inpa ready" laptop from eBay, which I'm grateful for because of the cash saving and generally liking to get things done myself. (Plus I just know it wouldn't have worked)
So, this weekend I finished putting two more injectors into the n53 (525i) and new spark plugs across the board for good measure. That's 4 new injectors now (index 11) in the cylinders recording misfires.
Onto adaptations.
I'm not sure I did it right. Reset them (set 2? Bimmerprofs didn't mention 2 sets). Drive gently for a bit. Stopped to check inpa, cleared any errors, drove a bit more. I can't really tell what it did, as there's no way I can watch inpa whilst driving!
Also, oddly, my torque lite app via Bluetooth registered zero activity on both lambda sensors.. Usually they're busy disagreeing with each other, but tonight obviously had other plans. So I couldn't use this method to see if lambda reading were in stratified mode.
What I can say is:
A) rough running has completely gone. Starts (both cold and warm) nice and smooth tickover, no lumpiness at all)
B) I brimmed it (99 Ron) and did a steady 30 ish miles up and down the M23, then brimmed it again.
Totals were:
28.3 miles
2.35 litres of fuel to brim it, makes....wait for it
12.04 litres per mile.
(Or, in English, 54.6mpg!)
I couldn't believe it. Ok, this was a steady 65mph with aircon off, but I'd never even got it over 24mpg with steady driving before.
Furthermore, the fuel trip computer has convinced itself I will get the following amount of miles from the tank!
Which is a clear 100 miles higher than anything seen before.
So, all in all I am pretty happy tonight. I have blanked out of my mind how much the injectors cost (along with the decoupler rings) and I guess the final 2 cylinders are a "when not if" thing, so I might as well just buy them now before they go up in price any more.
I should mention I've had no nox errors or cat ageing errors during all of this, so was pretty sure it was injector related.
With the engine behaving itself, I can now move onto step 2 of this car which is it's less than surgical handling, but that I think will be a new thread.
Ian
Great news Ian and well done on getting it sorted yourself. Thread title checks out. 
Fingers crossed the issue is sorted for good.
I agree that the other injectors will probably be a 'when rather than if' situation. Keep an eye online for prices. Occasionally there are eBay discount codes so you might be able to get them for less given now time isn't an issue.
Fingers crossed the issue is sorted for good.I agree that the other injectors will probably be a 'when rather than if' situation. Keep an eye online for prices. Occasionally there are eBay discount codes so you might be able to get them for less given now time isn't an issue.
Yeah, a warranty could well have paid itself back with those, though fitting wasn't too time consuming.
I assume BMW also reset adaptations etc.
I've still not done a full tank yet (since doing the work above) and gone back to short journeys, so haven't fully seen the fruits of my labour yet.
I assume BMW also reset adaptations etc.
I've still not done a full tank yet (since doing the work above) and gone back to short journeys, so haven't fully seen the fruits of my labour yet.
Thread revival!
Just over 2 years since posting this, I think my 5 series engine is behaving itself. It is the 3 litre N53.
I've done a couple of tanks of fuel, and got an average of 31mpg brim to brim, which surely means the car is going into stratified mode. (I have had constant 22mpg up until now.)
Things I did
- replace all injectors with index 11 (one by one- a mistake, should have just bit the bullet and done them all)
- new spark plugs and ignition coils (not sure I needed the coils)
- replaced all O2 sensors. At least one was duff - had to rule them out
- reset adaptations a few times - no real impact
- paid bimmerprofs £50 for a diagnostic. Yes he knows his stuff, but once he realised he couldn't sell me a noxem he basically just told me the problem was the codes I'd read to him.
At this point I had conversion failure bank 2 (29f5) (2a27) and cat 2 poor efficiency (can't recall code)
Ruling out a new cat, I decided to clean the bank 2 cat myself. I did this by heating up an oxylic and citric acid solution and poached it for a few hours (I had removed it first obviously).
I put it back on, and low and behold I still had no stratified mode. 2 errors: failure conversation again, as well as nox plausibility now.
At this point i got distracted a bit by work and things, but the other week I was under the car and noticed evidence of an exhaust leak where I had put the cat back. I had reused the original gasket, and hadn't got an air tight seal.
With this possibly explaining the nox plausibly (ie nox sensor seeing more air than the O2 sensors saw, confusing it), I bought some new gaskets (which didn't fit) so instead sealed the old gasket (again) with exhaust paste, and cleared errors.
This brings me up to date, as I've done a few hundred miles now with no engine related errors being shown in inpa, as well as getting a half decent mpg.
My only consolation was the car was cheap, and still way cheaper than equivalent 3 litre petrol beemers.
Next step is to get the 525i to 530i remap done, as I've had a quote for just under £200 (already have 3 stage manifold). Insurance will be about £100 extra - ie 25% more but hopefully worth it.
Ian
Just over 2 years since posting this, I think my 5 series engine is behaving itself. It is the 3 litre N53.
I've done a couple of tanks of fuel, and got an average of 31mpg brim to brim, which surely means the car is going into stratified mode. (I have had constant 22mpg up until now.)
Things I did
- replace all injectors with index 11 (one by one- a mistake, should have just bit the bullet and done them all)
- new spark plugs and ignition coils (not sure I needed the coils)
- replaced all O2 sensors. At least one was duff - had to rule them out
- reset adaptations a few times - no real impact
- paid bimmerprofs £50 for a diagnostic. Yes he knows his stuff, but once he realised he couldn't sell me a noxem he basically just told me the problem was the codes I'd read to him.
At this point I had conversion failure bank 2 (29f5) (2a27) and cat 2 poor efficiency (can't recall code)
Ruling out a new cat, I decided to clean the bank 2 cat myself. I did this by heating up an oxylic and citric acid solution and poached it for a few hours (I had removed it first obviously).
I put it back on, and low and behold I still had no stratified mode. 2 errors: failure conversation again, as well as nox plausibility now.
At this point i got distracted a bit by work and things, but the other week I was under the car and noticed evidence of an exhaust leak where I had put the cat back. I had reused the original gasket, and hadn't got an air tight seal.
With this possibly explaining the nox plausibly (ie nox sensor seeing more air than the O2 sensors saw, confusing it), I bought some new gaskets (which didn't fit) so instead sealed the old gasket (again) with exhaust paste, and cleared errors.
This brings me up to date, as I've done a few hundred miles now with no engine related errors being shown in inpa, as well as getting a half decent mpg.
My only consolation was the car was cheap, and still way cheaper than equivalent 3 litre petrol beemers.
Next step is to get the 525i to 530i remap done, as I've had a quote for just under £200 (already have 3 stage manifold). Insurance will be about £100 extra - ie 25% more but hopefully worth it.
Ian
popeofmick said:
Reading this brings back memories. I loved my E90 N53 330i but it tested my mechanical resolve almost weekly. Glad you got yours sorted.
My own has had its fair share of niggles. So far however, bar the NOx sensor which I should sort out, none have been N53 specific..(touches wood)This is somewhat of a thread revival, but I thought I would update it for posterity.
The event is I finally think my N53 is achieving reliable stratified running. I had replaced injectors, coils, O2 sensors and fixed exhaust leaks, but as still getting
- a2a7 Catalyst Conversion in Stratified Mode Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2) and
- 29f5 Catalytic-converter conversion 2
Then these things all happened last month:
-I finally decided to get my 525i mapped to 530i power
- I filled up with 99ron (garage out of 95)
- I gave my car somewhat of a thrashing up an dry empty M40 on the way to end tuning
- Enda reset the dme using ista (whereas I have always done fuel adpatoaions in inpa)
On the way home from Brum, I noticed my newly reset mpg average was up at 27-28 - unseen before in this car. It's usually between 21-24mph (it was wet so my drive home was more sedated)
I had noticed on error code 2a27 that the conditions for stratified are:
- a warm cat
- revs between 1500 and 3500
- speed under 120kmh -74mpg
So today I needed a 100 mile motorway trip, so set the cruise at 73 mph and did my level best to keep it under that and the revs down.
My mpg average over 140 miles (brim to brim) was...35mpg. That is a record for this car, for me. If I knock off the 40miles of town driving I did, it's probably higher on a steady motorway trip.
Annoyingly I'm not quite sure what did it - perhaps the blast with higher octane fuel "cleaned" the cat? But I have certainly done high motorway speeds before now.
Maybe it was something Enda did? And the car just reset adaptations by itself (without going through the palarva set out on the bimmerprofs website?)
Not sure.
Also to note: after getting remapped I'd kept my eye on error codes, and have gone a week with only 1 code being logged (e18f, which is an odd one anyway) so that's another milestone achieved.
But anyway, there we are. I will keep my eye on it, but I am reasonably happy it works in stratified mode now.
Ian
The event is I finally think my N53 is achieving reliable stratified running. I had replaced injectors, coils, O2 sensors and fixed exhaust leaks, but as still getting
- a2a7 Catalyst Conversion in Stratified Mode Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2) and
- 29f5 Catalytic-converter conversion 2
Then these things all happened last month:
-I finally decided to get my 525i mapped to 530i power
- I filled up with 99ron (garage out of 95)
- I gave my car somewhat of a thrashing up an dry empty M40 on the way to end tuning
- Enda reset the dme using ista (whereas I have always done fuel adpatoaions in inpa)
On the way home from Brum, I noticed my newly reset mpg average was up at 27-28 - unseen before in this car. It's usually between 21-24mph (it was wet so my drive home was more sedated)
I had noticed on error code 2a27 that the conditions for stratified are:
- a warm cat
- revs between 1500 and 3500
- speed under 120kmh -74mpg
So today I needed a 100 mile motorway trip, so set the cruise at 73 mph and did my level best to keep it under that and the revs down.
My mpg average over 140 miles (brim to brim) was...35mpg. That is a record for this car, for me. If I knock off the 40miles of town driving I did, it's probably higher on a steady motorway trip.
Annoyingly I'm not quite sure what did it - perhaps the blast with higher octane fuel "cleaned" the cat? But I have certainly done high motorway speeds before now.
Maybe it was something Enda did? And the car just reset adaptations by itself (without going through the palarva set out on the bimmerprofs website?)
Not sure.
Also to note: after getting remapped I'd kept my eye on error codes, and have gone a week with only 1 code being logged (e18f, which is an odd one anyway) so that's another milestone achieved.
But anyway, there we are. I will keep my eye on it, but I am reasonably happy it works in stratified mode now.
Ian
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