Is the ZZ572 a good choice?

[RedGTRUSA]

I saw a special on this engine a few days ago on TV. The crate engine makes 620 hp very reliably, it comes with a full warranty (racing included). Will it bolt to the G50? whats the size/weight difference? I would like to see the pos/neg between the SBC and this.

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/ZZ572-Crate-Engine-620-Deluxe-Street-Engine-12498793-P16C54.aspx

[builder]

RedGTRUSA said:

I saw a special on this engine a few days ago on TV. The crate engine makes 620 hp very reliably, it comes with a full warranty (racing included). Will it bolt to the G50? whats the size/weight difference? I would like to see the pos/neg between the SBC and this. www.crateenginedepot.com/store/ZZ572-Crate-Engine-620-Deluxe-Street-Engine-12498793-P16C54.aspx

If I am not mistaken, that's a big block format (BBC), as opposed to a small block (SBC). I don't believe a BBC will fit without major mods. Otherwise, it would be an excellent choice. I have a friend with one of these in a 1949 Chevy pickup truck. Sweet!

[craig-ultima]

This is a big block engine. To my understanding, it won't fit into an Ultima.

You can generally get from 300 to 1500 HP from a small block. You can generally get from 400 to 3000 HP from a big block. Some of these configurations will last 20 years with good maintenance, and some will last 5 seconds with complete rebuilds required at the end of the drag race. Dial up your own demise!

I have heard that a 4.0 liter BMW V10 has been fitted into an Ultima. Maybe that configuration is a longer engine? Pretty much everyone else uses the Chevy small block V8 footprint.

[chuntington101]

it is a big block mate. better going for a big power small block as the dilivery is better suited to the light wieght of the ultima (ie, loads of power and torque). if you are after big block power like this then take a look at FI.

if you want to go FI then i have seen a couple of feasable routes. first is the simplest and thats a procharger! i ahve seen creat engines (you could build or get one built for less) wit haround 1000bhp for $20K. still with supercharging you could go for a 3.3ltr whipple. i think one would fit and they are capeable of pumping upto about 900bhp worth of air, but you will need a very free flow top end to cope as about 12-14psi is the feasable limit on these things.

then there is turbocharging. there are few "kits" out there that could work. a Banks Power twin turbo kit may if you could mod the setup to pivort the turbos through 45degrees to aid air inlet. similar for the Nelson Racing Engines units. and nelson will sell you a coumplete unit cappable of 1000bhp for $20K.

but do you need all this power and torque??? the demonstrator was runninga 640bhp AS unit and that recorded a 0-60 time of 2.7 (i think)!

each to thier own!!

thanks Chris.

[RedGTRUSA]

Thanks guys, I knew it was a big block... I just didnt know if it would fit. I currently have a Chevy 383. I cant keep the engine cool, i cant get good oil pickup, i cant get good fuel pickup and I've taken the car to 3 places and i cant get the car running correctly. I'm trying to find an engine that will be very reliable. almoast all my miles are track miles, so should i go with a stock Ls6 and sacrifice big power for reliability? Does anyone here think a SBC can stand up to 90% track miles if built correctly?

[builder]

RedGTRUSA said:

Thanks guys, I knew it was a big block... I just didnt know if it would fit. I currently have a Chevy 383. I cant keep the engine cool, i cant get good oil pickup, i cant get good fuel pickup and I've taken the car to 3 places and i cant get the car running correctly. I'm trying to find an engine that will be very reliable. almoast all my miles are track miles, so should i go with a stock Ls6 and sacrifice big power for reliability? Does anyone here think a SBC can stand up to 90% track miles if built correctly?

Just about any engine can be made to fit...with major mods to the chassis. Reliability can be tested, if you go nutz on the mods. You know that heat (H), pressure (P), and acceleration (internal G-forces) are the enemy, but they are also what generate power. Choose your parts based on that. The more H,P, and G, the more $$$ for the parts.

LS6 is a great engine. However, if you repeat the same installation with a new engine, you might end up with the same issues. It may be more efficient to figure out the issues rather than place a new engine into the same environment:

Describe your engine: What horsepower, RPM, compression ratio and fuel are you currently running?

Can't keep it cool - Swaping an engine may not change this situation. What rad do you have? Have you fit any additional fans anywhere? What coolant are you using?

Can't get oil pickup - A stock LSx may not perform any better on hard cornering. Presuming it's wet-sump, what pan is installed? Baffels? Windage? Since this is a track car, have you considered dry-sump?

Can't get fuel pickup - What setup do you have?

[boomerkk]

chuntington101 said:

then there is turbocharging. there are few "kits" out there that could work. a Banks Power twin turbo kit may if you could mod the setup to pivort the turbos through 45degrees to aid air inlet. similar for the Nelson Racing Engines units. and nelson will sell you a coumplete unit cappable of 1000bhp for $20K. thanks Chris.

The Banks power engine is a thing of beauty, esp. when chromed and plated . 825hp on 91-octane - nice. The exhause manifold and turbo location will need to be adjusted tho. on the ultima, and you'll need to figure out location and piping for intercoolers.
Same with the Nelson engine.

But they've got several good things going for them:
1. Both based on SBCs
2. Relatively cheap price
3. Stonkingly huge hp
4. Possibly good road manners

[chuntington101]

boomerkk, your right mate. both offer amazing power for moderate (if you can call it that) outlay. on the location front, i recon the banks kit could fit! inc. the turbos and waestgates the total block length is 29 inch! would that fit?!?!? the only prblem would be getting cool air to the turbos. but if you could rig up a small section of say 3inch pipe to go inbetween the manifold and turbo, you could swing the turbos through 45 degrees (outwards). this should then let you stick a fillter on the end, or run ducting. same goes for the Nelson kit.

as for intercooling, well on the banks kit i wouldn't bother! just get a nelson 345 cubic incher with 235cc intake runners and run about 8-9psi and water injection (maybe able to run more boost with H2O)! should make stonking power! on the nelson kit (or the banks on a smaller unit) i would go for some PWR cylindrical chargecoolers! i recon they would fit well in the engine bay. then just rig the rads to the side pods or front and your away! also get nelson to put the manifold on the other way (i know it would entail more than that, but it could be done) and with some piping your away with one mean motor!!!

oh it all seems so easy in my head!!!!

Chris.

[eliot]

I'm running 5-6 psi on a twin turbo setup, and i would say that's the limit of non intercooling. The other day when it was 30+'c outside my inlet temps were hitting 100'c under boost and 55'c off boost.
I even tried hanging the air filters out the front of the car and it made little difference.

I'm Having to pull quite a bit of ignition out to prevent detonation.

Make sure your design/layout AT LEAST allows for [charge|inter]coolers, as you’re unlikely to be happy with 5psi and will want to crank it up a bit!



>> Edited by eliot on Thursday 21st July 13:28

[boomerkk]

For the banks setup, id say intercooling would be relatively easy. instead of the turbo piping going straight into the plenum, one could fabricate some piping going into a couple of top mount intercoolers (like in an impreza) placed side by side.

The turbos need to be swung to the side a bit like chuntington said, so there'll be more space.

banks power is a huge establishment, started in the 50s and now employing more than 200 employees. I'd probably go to them first if i was going to run twin turbos.

on a side note, what's the octane rating in the avg gasoline in the UK?

[chuntington101]

i think i would go for the bamks kit aswell. anyone know how much the kit costs? i have seen it for $10K on one site, but that wasn't direct. also anyone know how much a set up Accel injection system from them is? i have seen on the same site as above for $4K.

as for boost, i cant remember what banks say you can get away with, but i think it higher than you would think! odd really as they aren't using water cooled turbos (normally run a little cooler) but they do say its is the coolest running system around! but i agree a couple of intercoolers (sucbies are nice but can they handle 400bhp each?) would be better and let you turn the boost up! anyone think Cossy 4x4 cooler cores would fit in the side pods?

thanks Chris.

PS. some guys in the sates are ruuning their provhargers at over 14psi with no intercoolers! i think water/meth injection is much more popular over there though. maybe worth a look into eliot!

[eliot]

Belt driven turbos (centrifugal superchargers) seem to run cooler, Phil Ringwood is running one on his stock 9.75cr rover lump. His inlets never get above 50'c.

I was thinking of making a top mount intercooler setup on mine, but i think it would be a waste of time - as the amount of underbonnet temperature is enormous. Heat rises remember!

[boomerkk]

agreed. top mount will need ventilation definitely. extra vents maybe?

or pipe to the side pods, then set up the coolers there.

water-air-intercooling would be excellent a la brammo, but will need extra engineering and more parts ie. water pump etc. i suppose

[boomerkk]

take a look at this:

www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23

the banks power twinturbo SBC crate engine is not around $20k, more like $40k, but i'd say it's worth it for 1100Rwhp although i dunno who has got enuff balls and dough to get one

[boomerkk]

p/s have a look at the video in which there's a pickup truck installed with the twin turbo crate engine (650rwhp, nonintercooled, on 91octane)
V8 SBC rumble but with wastegate and turbo whistles and whooshes. Strange but good

[chuntington101]

thanks boomerkk. so you have to folk out $4K ish for the turbo kit and then andother $4K for the injection system! then you got to build/get an engines capable of holding upto 1100bhp! its not looking cheap, even for the power you get!

so do you guys think this one from nelson racing could work? the turbos & waestgates do sit in a similar location to the banks kit, but it looks easier to swing them around a bit. hell bet they would even do it for you when they built the thing! also this unit comes with full electronic ignition and EFI! and all for under $20K!!!!!!

here is the link to NRE's crate engines.

www.nelsonracingengines.com/motors.html

thanks Chris.

[DUBLE PUMPER]

Ime running a zz4 385 HP and previously a zz4 355 HP for 7k miles on the track and it was still going when i took it out. Ive spent my cash on the wheels suspension and tyres and very few cars can keep up with me including a few big HP Ultimas (sorry Ian it had to come out ).
Anyone can go quick in a straight line, its getting it round the corners and stopping it that counts on a circuit

[B1 ECC]

DUBLE PUMPER said:

Ime running a zz4 385 HP and previously a zz4 355 HP for 7k miles on the track and it was still going when i took it out. Ive spent my cash on the wheels suspension and tyres and very few cars can keep up with me including a few big HP Ultimas (sorry Ian it had to come out ). Anyone can go quick in a straight line, its getting it round the corners and stopping it that counts on a circuit

I must apologise for Graham as he is slightly dillusional, the only reason that his car goes round corners is because he uses my spring and shock settings,irrespective of the fact that a well known professional set his car up----"Badly". He is also known as the last of the late brakers which has probably something to do with his eyesight, other than that i agree with him entirely

[boomerkk]

chuntington101 said:

thanks boomerkk. so you have to folk out $4K ish for the turbo kit and then andother $4K for the injection system! then you got to build/get an engines capable of holding upto 1100bhp! its not looking cheap, even for the power you get! so do you guys think this one from nelson racing could work? the turbos & waestgates do sit in a similar location to the banks kit, but it looks easier to swing them around a bit. hell bet they would even do it for you when they built the thing! also this unit comes with full electronic ignition and EFI! and all for under $20K!!!!!! here is the link to NRE's crate engines. www.nelsonracingengines.com/motors.html thanks Chris.

Chris, have you seen Brammo Motorsports twin turbo? The Banks and NRE motors aren't specifically built for the Ultima and I'd imagine there'll be a bit of work needed to fit it in and make it work.
Brammo has 1 twin turbo motor fully built specifically for the ultima. Although I would imagine it'll be expensive, it uses a C5R block among other things

[chuntington101]

yeah boomerkk i have seen it! looks outstanding, but i think it will cost a fortune and doesn't seem to run any silences, although im sure they could engineer some. when mentioning the NRC and banks i was just looking at them as a starting point. i understand some "tweeking" would be needed. still be nice to see someone use them.

also came across this website on a twin turboed vette. its turbo location would be ideal (low and far back enough for good cold intakes). the manifolds are basically block hugging headers that have a pipe that comes back up (throuhg a tight 1870 degree turn) upto where the turbos sit. i was a bit sus of the tight turn, but it cant be that bad! what you guys think?

www.twinturbovette.net/Home1.htm heres the site.

thanks Chris.