What is wrong with the Ingenium Engine?
Discussion
When changing our 100 % reliable Freelander 2 recently we were faced with a dilema .what do we replace it with FL2 finished in 2014 and if you watch prices of HSE lux and Metropolis are on the up some being offered at £22k !!! Over the years we have owned lots of LR motors . All have been reliable . However when reading about our options - Evoque and disco sport, the internet is full of horror stories re the ingenium engine . Short service intervals , software issues and ballance shaft horrors . All these are off putting and so we played safe and bought a D5 XC60 . Which according to a mechanic is similar to the FL2 in many ways .
Getting to my story , my mate who runs new 4 x 4's has had 4 Range Rovers over 12 years his latest PM400 hybrid .
His wife is on hr 3rd Disco, this a 5 on a 2 litre ingenium diesel . 44,000 miles and 6months out of warranty (he is awaiting delivery of a defender 110 ) and bang a turbo lets go, drinking all the oil and damaging turbo 2 . After assessment compression in one cylinder is also down He was quoted £2500 for the turbos , so now faces a total bill around £ 10 - 12 k .
These vehicles are not cheap to buy . It is not a Dacia Duster
LR used the 2.2 in the FL 2 and early Evoque and disco sports . Really relaible , maybe a little harsh but I can live with that . harshness costs me nothing .My other choice a discovery 2.7 v6 was notorious for snapping cranks .
How can LR be expected to called a luxury car maker when the most important part is flawed . The Australians have a saying if you want to go into the outback take a Land rover . If you want to come home again take a Toyota !!
LR needs to sort unrelaibility out once and for all .
Getting to my story , my mate who runs new 4 x 4's has had 4 Range Rovers over 12 years his latest PM400 hybrid .
His wife is on hr 3rd Disco, this a 5 on a 2 litre ingenium diesel . 44,000 miles and 6months out of warranty (he is awaiting delivery of a defender 110 ) and bang a turbo lets go, drinking all the oil and damaging turbo 2 . After assessment compression in one cylinder is also down He was quoted £2500 for the turbos , so now faces a total bill around £ 10 - 12 k .
These vehicles are not cheap to buy . It is not a Dacia Duster
LR used the 2.2 in the FL 2 and early Evoque and disco sports . Really relaible , maybe a little harsh but I can live with that . harshness costs me nothing .My other choice a discovery 2.7 v6 was notorious for snapping cranks .
How can LR be expected to called a luxury car maker when the most important part is flawed . The Australians have a saying if you want to go into the outback take a Land rover . If you want to come home again take a Toyota !!
LR needs to sort unrelaibility out once and for all .
LR do seem to stir up some stories but trouble is I think it’s the old issue of people taking to the internet when they have an issue. No one really goes online and states just how reliable their car is unless it’s a Toyota owner!
I just keep a LR approved warranty on my D4 so if it goes pop then it’s not a £££ problem at least. Then again in our family never had a LR product have a engine failure over 20 years from 200tdi’s to TDV8 to now two ingenuim’s and a D4.
I just keep a LR approved warranty on my D4 so if it goes pop then it’s not a £££ problem at least. Then again in our family never had a LR product have a engine failure over 20 years from 200tdi’s to TDV8 to now two ingenuim’s and a D4.
I have a 2.2 Disco Sport. It was an LR owned car being a demonstrator/loan car etc. and had done a bit over 7000 miles. 4 1/2 years later and just over 40,000 miles, I am glad that I have the original version with the 2.2 Ford engine after all the stories about the ingenium engine.
I am not considering changing vehicles but if I was to do so now I would get either a petrol or maybe PHEV DS, assuming I stayed with LR.
I also agree that people will report bad experiences, leaving far more other people to simply enjoy their unreported free of issues experiences .
R.
I am not considering changing vehicles but if I was to do so now I would get either a petrol or maybe PHEV DS, assuming I stayed with LR.
I also agree that people will report bad experiences, leaving far more other people to simply enjoy their unreported free of issues experiences .
R.
As a faimily we have owned LR's for 20 years , quite often two at a time . My current TD5 Defender is now 17 years old . I have owned it since 2006, I have no intention of selling it . Faults needed injector seals and a pump this year . Other than that rear cross member painted every 2 years . Serviced and waxoyled by a specialist . So 17 years of cheap 30 mpg motoring , I am a convert.However on buying the LR in 2006 , 6k miles , the clutch was heavy compared with 300tdi .Told it was normal . This went on for 3 years ish say 18 k miles . Eventually a new slave cylinder fit . No difference , so specialist removed gearbox . One of the nuts from the clutch cover was missing and over time the cover had cracked causing the issue. I wrote to LR - answer was basically not our problem . A friend works at a back street garage they buy up as many jag s type 2.7 v6's as they can get at a price . Why ? they have customers waiting for engine swaps . Some years ago we bought some Jag spares from A Jag specialist in the NE .They were doing these swaps 2012 . LR should admit and really help their LOYAL customers when things go wrong beacause of maunufacturing or assembly faults . When you are buying a Disco 5 HSE you are looking north of £50k . Because LR cannot deliver cars on time people like my mate end up stuck with a vehicle that they had intended to have moved on . But what about the person who would now be in possession on my mates Disco 5 ?? Would LR warranty fully cover engine failure ? Land rover has set itself up as a premium manufacturer . From my little bits of `gossip' i would say that their dealers and after sales is lower league . Take your motor to a good specialist who will look after you .
Evidently there are some issues around the early Ingeniums, particularly in transverse applications but these sort of widespread issues aren't unique to Land Rover.
Personally I think the bigger issue is customer service, even small issues on a JLR product can become a massive hassle. It's always a fight to get a courtesy car and the instinctive reaction from most dealers and their staff is to avoid fronting any costs, rather than to do the right thing.
In my family we've had some major issues with Porsche, and my last Cayenne ended up with the engine out twice in the space of 6 months, the entire panoramic roof assembly replaced with the leak it caused also requiring the entire rear wiring harness and in car entertainment system to be replaced along with it. My old man's 991 Turbo is currently in having it's 4th PDK gearbox fitted at 40,000 miles on the clock.
In both cases the dealers have either bent over backwards or at worst needed very little push back to get a satisfactory result. I can't think of a single occasion on any of our JLR vehicles where that's been the case with even a minor issue.
Both cases also had the extended warranty running, so they weren't nearly new vehicles either. I think these days with the complexity of your average car it's brave to have any car that's worth 40-50k+ out of extended warranty, especially with JLR when the cover actually seems to be pretty good and cost effective.
Personally I think the bigger issue is customer service, even small issues on a JLR product can become a massive hassle. It's always a fight to get a courtesy car and the instinctive reaction from most dealers and their staff is to avoid fronting any costs, rather than to do the right thing.
In my family we've had some major issues with Porsche, and my last Cayenne ended up with the engine out twice in the space of 6 months, the entire panoramic roof assembly replaced with the leak it caused also requiring the entire rear wiring harness and in car entertainment system to be replaced along with it. My old man's 991 Turbo is currently in having it's 4th PDK gearbox fitted at 40,000 miles on the clock.
In both cases the dealers have either bent over backwards or at worst needed very little push back to get a satisfactory result. I can't think of a single occasion on any of our JLR vehicles where that's been the case with even a minor issue.
Both cases also had the extended warranty running, so they weren't nearly new vehicles either. I think these days with the complexity of your average car it's brave to have any car that's worth 40-50k+ out of extended warranty, especially with JLR when the cover actually seems to be pretty good and cost effective.
In response my mate has now got his 2017 HSE discovery 5 back . total cost inc engine £11500 .He wrote to LR saying he and his wife have purchased from them 3 Range rovers and Three discoveries all new . They are now looking at a discovery for defender 110 swap and another RR hybrid - total cost around £180k less trade ins .
Land rovers response ` we would offer you discounted labour ' . So he has spent circa £400k with them and awaitng to spend some more and that is their response .
All manufacturers do have issues , but as somebody else said it is how you deal with them .Land rover seem to have this high and mighty atitude that their vehicles are totally reliable when in fact they van be a nightmare . My mates RR hybrid stopped charging , when his fellow directors dash board started to flicker .When two have his staff's RR sport hybrids were both off the road with electrical issues . all took two weeks to sort , LR were so short of loan vehicles in the Leeds area my mate ended up with an XC90 .
So hybrid LR's are not from the 100 % failures above reliable , but yet their arsey customer service offers discounted labour , what £120 to £90 /hr .
Thanks , LR are lucky he would buy a Bentley but feels it is a bit rich !!!
Land rovers response ` we would offer you discounted labour ' . So he has spent circa £400k with them and awaitng to spend some more and that is their response .
All manufacturers do have issues , but as somebody else said it is how you deal with them .Land rover seem to have this high and mighty atitude that their vehicles are totally reliable when in fact they van be a nightmare . My mates RR hybrid stopped charging , when his fellow directors dash board started to flicker .When two have his staff's RR sport hybrids were both off the road with electrical issues . all took two weeks to sort , LR were so short of loan vehicles in the Leeds area my mate ended up with an XC90 .
So hybrid LR's are not from the 100 % failures above reliable , but yet their arsey customer service offers discounted labour , what £120 to £90 /hr .
Thanks , LR are lucky he would buy a Bentley but feels it is a bit rich !!!
freshbread said:
My mates RR hybrid stopped charging , when his fellow directors dash board started to flicker .When two have his staff's RR sport hybrids were both off the road with electrical issues . all took two weeks to sort , LR were so short of loan vehicles in the Leeds area my mate ended up with an XC90 .
So hybrid LR's are not from the 100 % failures above reliable , but yet their arsey customer service offers discounted labour , what £120 to £90 /hr .
Yet in my experience (2 Hybrids) they have been entirely reliable. So hybrid LR's are not from the 100 % failures above reliable , but yet their arsey customer service offers discounted labour , what £120 to £90 /hr .
Do you only come on here to post anti-JLR rants?
Also, it doesn't stop them buying them does it?
I'd say in your mate's case I'd be minded to sue the supplying dealer on the basis that the car is of unsatisfactory quality - but the trouble is the fact that the bill is >£10K means it's too much for Small Claims Court and a positive outcome at a County Court is more unlikely and certainly a much bigger financial risk.
As another poster said though, I wouldn't dream of running a modern diesel without some kind of warranty cover at least until it's a good few years old. I suppose the other side of that is to count up how much you’ve saved for all the years you've run one without warranty vs how much you've spent on repairs.
As another poster said though, I wouldn't dream of running a modern diesel without some kind of warranty cover at least until it's a good few years old. I suppose the other side of that is to count up how much you’ve saved for all the years you've run one without warranty vs how much you've spent on repairs.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Monday 31st May 10:20
I can only report what I know from 3 yrs of MrsCs use of a Disco Sport SE Tech 2 litre Ingenium.....we’ve so far in 61k miles (had it new) & had a couple of rogue EMLs but otherwise it’s been very good. Ours is serviced as per JLRs schedule/service indicator so it’s about 22-24k mile intervals & it’s use isn’t lots of town driving/short journeys. Adblue consumption is about 5k miles per tank & it does between 37-45 mpg (it’s a manual) but is mainly just under 40 mpg.
I think the internet may slightly over inflate the reliability problem although I’d agree with others that if it wasn’t a company car, we’d have taken the extended warranty to see out our ownership. JLRs warranty position on cars just outside of warranty isn’t as good I understand as some of their competitors, but I think it varies depending on the dealership involved.
Our car was chosen over equivalent priced BMWs, Audi’s & Mercs (SUV based) when new btw.
I think the internet may slightly over inflate the reliability problem although I’d agree with others that if it wasn’t a company car, we’d have taken the extended warranty to see out our ownership. JLRs warranty position on cars just outside of warranty isn’t as good I understand as some of their competitors, but I think it varies depending on the dealership involved.
Our car was chosen over equivalent priced BMWs, Audi’s & Mercs (SUV based) when new btw.
ExcitableBoy said:
Also, it doesn't stop them buying them does it?
I disagree. I think that Landrover lose a lot of sales because of poor showings in reliability tables, a general reputation for unreliability and a reputation for terrible dealer service. I only ordered a RRS because I have other cars that I can use if it breaks down, and because I could have it on a full maintenance rental. I would not have bought it if was relying on it.A lovely car, by the way which has had no faults in the first 6 months of ownership. Very happy.
Most of the dealers are a joke. I honestly think issue frequency on RR is really not material. I can't speak for further across the LR range though.
I also think the real reason for low reliability scores is the amount of leggy LR products that are maintained on a shoe string.
As or why people come back to them, Doug summed it up quite nicely in this article:
https://jalopnik.com/if-range-rovers-are-so-unreli...
I also think the real reason for low reliability scores is the amount of leggy LR products that are maintained on a shoe string.
As or why people come back to them, Doug summed it up quite nicely in this article:
https://jalopnik.com/if-range-rovers-are-so-unreli...
My partner has had a couple of Evoques, apart from oil dilution bringing up an early service message on one they have been fine until our latest one.
It’s a very nice 2019 R-Dynamic but it has broken down around five times in the past year ncluding twice in the roadworks on the motorway with no hard shoulder. It seems to have been fixed for now but she won’t have another Land Rover.
It’s a very nice 2019 R-Dynamic but it has broken down around five times in the past year ncluding twice in the roadworks on the motorway with no hard shoulder. It seems to have been fixed for now but she won’t have another Land Rover.
think there are always horror stories, for any brand - so you have to go to the data to see the truth.
....aaannd, Land Rover don't do well. Disco Sport least reliable SUV looking at WhatCar's survey.
Have ran mine for nearly 3 years, and for 35k+ miles, and it's been good as gold. Just one rattling piece of heat shrink welded by a local indy for £80 - and that's it for the whole time. Both previous company car mercs had their issues under warranty over the past 10 years or so. Data would suggest i've been lucky tho!
....aaannd, Land Rover don't do well. Disco Sport least reliable SUV looking at WhatCar's survey.
Have ran mine for nearly 3 years, and for 35k+ miles, and it's been good as gold. Just one rattling piece of heat shrink welded by a local indy for £80 - and that's it for the whole time. Both previous company car mercs had their issues under warranty over the past 10 years or so. Data would suggest i've been lucky tho!
MrC986 said:
I can only report what I know from 3 yrs of MrsCs use of a Disco Sport SE Tech 2 litre Ingenium.....we’ve so far in 61k miles (had it new) & had a couple of rogue EMLs but otherwise it’s been very good. Ours is serviced as per JLRs schedule/service indicator so it’s about 22-24k mile intervals & it’s use isn’t lots of town driving/short journeys. Adblue consumption is about 5k miles per tank & it does between 37-45 mpg (it’s a manual) but is mainly just under 40 mpg.
I think the internet may slightly over inflate the reliability problem although I’d agree with others that if it wasn’t a company car, we’d have taken the extended warranty to see out our ownership. JLRs warranty position on cars just outside of warranty isn’t as good I understand as some of their competitors, but I think it varies depending on the dealership involved.
Our car was chosen over equivalent priced BMWs, Audi’s & Mercs (SUV based) when new btw.
22 - 24k service intervals on an ingenium engine is brave, I'd be changing oil at 10-12k which might give it a fighting chance of lasting. I suppose if its not going to br a long term ownership vehicle it doesn't matter but I pity the next owner. I think the internet may slightly over inflate the reliability problem although I’d agree with others that if it wasn’t a company car, we’d have taken the extended warranty to see out our ownership. JLRs warranty position on cars just outside of warranty isn’t as good I understand as some of their competitors, but I think it varies depending on the dealership involved.
Our car was chosen over equivalent priced BMWs, Audi’s & Mercs (SUV based) when new btw.
I'm a big LR fan, my current LR (not a daily) is a 35 year old classic early 110 with a 200Tdi and a disco t/box in it. Chassis is very sound, and it's about to get a whole lot of love with a new galvanised bulkhead, g/box rebuild and a tasteful respray (a nice classic white roof/Caledonian blue body).
The Mrs' daily is a Velar D240 HSE which has been a nightmare since day one. It had a new engine at 25,000 miles due to poor compression on one cylinder, fortunately under warranty, but that's ridiculous for a high end vehicle. The infotainment system has been nothing but trouble (IMHO touchscreens are dangerous in cars and should be banned as basic vehicle functions cannot be operated in a tactile way with a switch...you have to take your eyes off the road to look at them), however when if fails and you lose all the ability to operate basic heating and demisting controls etc, it's ridiculous.
To top it all, I had a new Velar as a courtesy car at one point when ours was in...after 8 miles of driving the car flashed up every fault code known to man and immediately lost all power. I had to coast to a halt up a grass verge.
The Mrs' daily is a Velar D240 HSE which has been a nightmare since day one. It had a new engine at 25,000 miles due to poor compression on one cylinder, fortunately under warranty, but that's ridiculous for a high end vehicle. The infotainment system has been nothing but trouble (IMHO touchscreens are dangerous in cars and should be banned as basic vehicle functions cannot be operated in a tactile way with a switch...you have to take your eyes off the road to look at them), however when if fails and you lose all the ability to operate basic heating and demisting controls etc, it's ridiculous.
To top it all, I had a new Velar as a courtesy car at one point when ours was in...after 8 miles of driving the car flashed up every fault code known to man and immediately lost all power. I had to coast to a halt up a grass verge.
The 'Ingenium Problem' is generally installation related - the diesel has a problem in the transverse installations as there's no room for the exhaust cleaning hardware in the engine bay so it's under the car in the nice cold air. So it never gets hot enough in normal use to burn off the exhaust soot - so active regeneration is required injecting diesel into on the exhaust stroke causing oil dilution when regenerations don't finish and restart on the next trip and so on.
So the dilution causes problems, possibly the balance shafts, timing chain wear and then the EGR and DPF (actually a SCRF but let's not be pedantic) clogging up. The old twin turbo D240 engine was better as had different exhaust architecture.
The problems are then made worse by short runs, town/city driving as Land Rover would flog you a diesel as it's all they had in the car for a few years, when they introduced the Ingenium petrol they could ask buyers about usage and sell them a petrol. My usage dropped, I swapped a DS diesel for petrol as was fed up with the constant service warnings, oil changes, possible EGR failure and the debates over who's paying.
The Ingenium petrols and diesel longitudinal installs (Discovery, various Jags, etc.) don't generally have a problem, the odd broken turbo is probably statistically run of the mill I'm afraid.
So the dilution causes problems, possibly the balance shafts, timing chain wear and then the EGR and DPF (actually a SCRF but let's not be pedantic) clogging up. The old twin turbo D240 engine was better as had different exhaust architecture.
The problems are then made worse by short runs, town/city driving as Land Rover would flog you a diesel as it's all they had in the car for a few years, when they introduced the Ingenium petrol they could ask buyers about usage and sell them a petrol. My usage dropped, I swapped a DS diesel for petrol as was fed up with the constant service warnings, oil changes, possible EGR failure and the debates over who's paying.
The Ingenium petrols and diesel longitudinal installs (Discovery, various Jags, etc.) don't generally have a problem, the odd broken turbo is probably statistically run of the mill I'm afraid.
Dashnine said:
The 'Ingenium Problem' is generally installation related - the diesel has a problem in the transverse installations as there's no room for the exhaust cleaning hardware in the engine bay so it's under the car in the nice cold air. So it never gets hot enough in normal use to burn off the exhaust soot - so active regeneration is required injecting diesel into on the exhaust stroke causing oil dilution when regenerations don't finish and restart on the next trip and so on.
I think pretty well all DPFs are like that - I've seen stuff on VW Golf forums where they monitor the dpf temp and it never gets anywhere near passive regen temp in normal UK 9even motorway) use. We did a fast 300 mile round trip across the M62 in wife's Tiguan over a weekend and then next day on the school run it started an active regen. Tiguan just seems to get on with it itself (can't tell it's doing a regen until you get out of the car and hear the cooling fan going) and it pretty well only does 3 mile school runs and 4 miles into town or supermarket.
To add to Ingenium woes stories, our 2.0 diesel Discovery Sport has just chewed its engine at 64,000 miles only, always serviced to schedule by JLR franchise. JLR refusing to acknowledge any issue of their making and will not offer any “goodwill” contribution to £10K engine replacement cost as car over 6 years old - mileage apparently irrelevant. It all seems to be around a timing chain and related issue - ours ate the camshaft rocker arm. Interested to hear of others, but I think this is a real issue brewing.
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