Rejecting a used car!
Discussion
If anyone has dealt with this and can shed some light I would be very greatful please!
We bought a 2005 Renault Modus in October (yes we now know this was a big mistake). In December the car broke down with electrical issues on the back lights, if the brakes we on there was a disco of all the bulbs and this then led on to the auto gearbox getting stuck in 2nd gear and it wouldn't stop rolling until the ignition was turned off. It was recovered by the RAC back to my house because it was christmas eve and the garage was shut. So in January they had the car in for repair under the 3 month warranty that was given with it. Had the car back and they had fixed a bad earth on the back light. Roll on to 7 weeks later and the car does exactly the same thing again. Stuck in gear so we call out the RAC who managed to get it out of gear and followed us home. The garage had the car back again and this time replaced the entire wiring unit for the back lights and a speed sensor on the gearbox.
We have then had the car back for one week and driving have seen that the rear brake lights are either stuck on with the fog light, won't come on at all or the indicator bulbs come on instead, as well as an intermittent reverse light. We obviously can't drive it with the potential of no rear lights so have been in touch with the garage owner who hasn't replied. The car is now on the driveway and we have borrowed a family members car.
We have written them a rejection email (how we have previously comunicated) and had no reply for 9 days. We gave them 14 days to reply to the email which is this coming sunday. If they don't reply we will have to go to small claims court to try and get our money back but it is such a grey area as to what is a 'car with a fault' and what is a 'faulty car'. I'm very confused with it all and wondering if anyone has dealt with similar and managed to get the money back?
The sales and service managers at the garage are both very rude and arrogant. Our last interaction saw them tell me that the car had been driven through a flood which has got the wiring loom wet even though I have told them it hadn't been anywhere near any water like that. (just because there was flooding in the area on the night it broke down) I have been told that the RAC report was wrong, even though I have an A4 sheet from them with the fault codes from the first time it broke down. He also told me that a major mechanical fault was not electrical and that it shouldn't have been repaired on the warranty and it was a good will gesture to us! He literally called me a liar to my face so as you can imagine I have absolutely no desire to go and see him again. We have a written apology off the owner for the way he spoke to us and have addressed all correspondance to the owner himself. I think we've been fair giving them two chances to fix the issues, they obviously can't fix it properly and I have absolutely no faith in them being able to do so in the future so I want nothing more to do with it or them if I'm honest.
I'm very nervous about spending the court fee's to then have them say it is not a good enough reason to reject the car.
Any help or insights so very greatfully received.
Thank you
We bought a 2005 Renault Modus in October (yes we now know this was a big mistake). In December the car broke down with electrical issues on the back lights, if the brakes we on there was a disco of all the bulbs and this then led on to the auto gearbox getting stuck in 2nd gear and it wouldn't stop rolling until the ignition was turned off. It was recovered by the RAC back to my house because it was christmas eve and the garage was shut. So in January they had the car in for repair under the 3 month warranty that was given with it. Had the car back and they had fixed a bad earth on the back light. Roll on to 7 weeks later and the car does exactly the same thing again. Stuck in gear so we call out the RAC who managed to get it out of gear and followed us home. The garage had the car back again and this time replaced the entire wiring unit for the back lights and a speed sensor on the gearbox.
We have then had the car back for one week and driving have seen that the rear brake lights are either stuck on with the fog light, won't come on at all or the indicator bulbs come on instead, as well as an intermittent reverse light. We obviously can't drive it with the potential of no rear lights so have been in touch with the garage owner who hasn't replied. The car is now on the driveway and we have borrowed a family members car.
We have written them a rejection email (how we have previously comunicated) and had no reply for 9 days. We gave them 14 days to reply to the email which is this coming sunday. If they don't reply we will have to go to small claims court to try and get our money back but it is such a grey area as to what is a 'car with a fault' and what is a 'faulty car'. I'm very confused with it all and wondering if anyone has dealt with similar and managed to get the money back?
The sales and service managers at the garage are both very rude and arrogant. Our last interaction saw them tell me that the car had been driven through a flood which has got the wiring loom wet even though I have told them it hadn't been anywhere near any water like that. (just because there was flooding in the area on the night it broke down) I have been told that the RAC report was wrong, even though I have an A4 sheet from them with the fault codes from the first time it broke down. He also told me that a major mechanical fault was not electrical and that it shouldn't have been repaired on the warranty and it was a good will gesture to us! He literally called me a liar to my face so as you can imagine I have absolutely no desire to go and see him again. We have a written apology off the owner for the way he spoke to us and have addressed all correspondance to the owner himself. I think we've been fair giving them two chances to fix the issues, they obviously can't fix it properly and I have absolutely no faith in them being able to do so in the future so I want nothing more to do with it or them if I'm honest.
I'm very nervous about spending the court fee's to then have them say it is not a good enough reason to reject the car.
Any help or insights so very greatfully received.
Thank you
You need to clarify the exact date you bought it.
If it was less than 6 months ago, then the law is on your side much more - the dealer would have to prove the fault was not present when you bought the car. If it's over 6 months, it's the other way around - you have to prove it was (although you appear to have sufficient evidence for that).
If you bought it in October, the 6 months will be some time in April - so the timing is important.
(Note though that you bought a 15 year old car, so although it obviously shouldn't constantly break down - it isn't entirely unreasonable to expect some faults).
If it was less than 6 months ago, then the law is on your side much more - the dealer would have to prove the fault was not present when you bought the car. If it's over 6 months, it's the other way around - you have to prove it was (although you appear to have sufficient evidence for that).
If you bought it in October, the 6 months will be some time in April - so the timing is important.
(Note though that you bought a 15 year old car, so although it obviously shouldn't constantly break down - it isn't entirely unreasonable to expect some faults).
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 6th April 12:59
I think one of the things you're going to struggle with here is that it's a 16 year old car that's worth £1,000. Dependant on the exact wording of your warranty, the fact that the car was fine until December and then developed a fault which may or may not be deemed outside of your warranty, you may simply be out of luck as it seems unlikely that this fault would have been present at purchase if there were no issues for two months.
Please don't confuse the dealer's attempts to fix the issue as a confirmation that the wording of the warranty covers your issue, it may have simply being an offer in good faith by the dealer and you may be out of luck pursuing any further. Though obviously your warranty may cover this exact issue and you may be well within your rights to kick up a fuss.
All in all, for the value of the car I wouldn't be willing to go through the small claims process, I'd scrap the car and move one. That's me though, you do what you need to do.
Please don't confuse the dealer's attempts to fix the issue as a confirmation that the wording of the warranty covers your issue, it may have simply being an offer in good faith by the dealer and you may be out of luck pursuing any further. Though obviously your warranty may cover this exact issue and you may be well within your rights to kick up a fuss.
All in all, for the value of the car I wouldn't be willing to go through the small claims process, I'd scrap the car and move one. That's me though, you do what you need to do.
davek_964 said:
You need to clarify the exact date you bought it.
If it was less than 6 months ago, then the law is on your side much more - the dealer would have to prove the fault was not present when you bought the car. If it's over 6 months, it's the other way around - you have to prove it was (although you appear to have sufficient evidence for that).
If you bought it in October, the 6 months will be some time in April - so the timing is important.
(Note though that you bought a 15 year old car, so although it obviously shouldn't constantly break down - it isn't entirely unreasonable to expect some faults).
Thank you for replying and yes this is where we are coming up confused. Whether this is something that is good enough to actually reject the car over or whether we are just going to be told it is old so suck it up. If it was less than 6 months ago, then the law is on your side much more - the dealer would have to prove the fault was not present when you bought the car. If it's over 6 months, it's the other way around - you have to prove it was (although you appear to have sufficient evidence for that).
If you bought it in October, the 6 months will be some time in April - so the timing is important.
(Note though that you bought a 15 year old car, so although it obviously shouldn't constantly break down - it isn't entirely unreasonable to expect some faults).
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 6th April 12:59
We bought the car on the 5th October and we sent the rejection email before that point and with it being repaired twice in that time the 6 months is still very much a valid time frame, the owner has also done an extra months warranty on the gearbox breaking down again which was a nice gesture to be fair to him.
J1990 said:
I think one of the things you're going to struggle with here is that it's a 16 year old car that's worth £1,000. Dependant on the exact wording of your warranty, the fact that the car was fine until December and then developed a fault which may or may not be deemed outside of your warranty, you may simply be out of luck as it seems unlikely that this fault would have been present at purchase if there were no issues for two months.
Please don't confuse the dealer's attempts to fix the issue as a confirmation that the wording of the warranty covers your issue, it may have simply being an offer in good faith by the dealer and you may be out of luck pursuing any further. Though obviously your warranty may cover this exact issue and you may be well within your rights to kick up a fuss.
All in all, for the value of the car I wouldn't be willing to go through the small claims process, I'd scrap the car and move one. That's me though, you do what you need to do.
Unfortunately scrapping it after saving up the money to buy it isn't an option and we equally can't afford to get a huge electrical repair done either by another garage. The warrant coverd 'major mechanical fault' which does cover the gear box but according to the service guy not the wiring to the gear box. but surely it doesn't matter if it is worth a tenner or fifty grand, they have sold something that is faulty over and over again, that surely makes it their responsibilty?Please don't confuse the dealer's attempts to fix the issue as a confirmation that the wording of the warranty covers your issue, it may have simply being an offer in good faith by the dealer and you may be out of luck pursuing any further. Though obviously your warranty may cover this exact issue and you may be well within your rights to kick up a fuss.
All in all, for the value of the car I wouldn't be willing to go through the small claims process, I'd scrap the car and move one. That's me though, you do what you need to do.
amyfairylou said:
but surely it doesn't matter if it is worth a tenner or fifty grand, they have sold something that is faulty over and over again, that surely makes it their responsibilty?
Not really.If you have bought a brand new car - or a 6 month old car - you would reasonably expect it to have far less problems than a 15 year old car with xxxx miles on it. Absolute value is less of an issue.
It does sound like the actual fault is electrical - the consequence of that is that it causes problems with the gearbox behaviour. Although it sounds poor, I'm not all that surprised that the dealer says the electrical fault isn't covered by the warranty but the gearbox would be (if the gearbox was actually faulty).
I suspect that the only option you will have is to get an auto electrician to see if they can solve the problems with the lights.
Random question. Do you have a sunroof?
Years ago I had a clio that exhibited pretty much what you describe. Turned out the sun roof on many Renault models of that era are not the best and water tracks in down the pillars to the passenger side where helpfully the 'brain' is located. I cant remember what the part was called (helpful, sorry!) but it was some kind of electrical control module for the car.
From memory it cost me about £300 to replace it.
Years ago I had a clio that exhibited pretty much what you describe. Turned out the sun roof on many Renault models of that era are not the best and water tracks in down the pillars to the passenger side where helpfully the 'brain' is located. I cant remember what the part was called (helpful, sorry!) but it was some kind of electrical control module for the car.
From memory it cost me about £300 to replace it.
davek_964 said:
Not really.
If you have bought a brand new car - or a 6 month old car - you would reasonably expect it to have far less problems than a 15 year old car with xxxx miles on it. Absolute value is less of an issue.
It does sound like the actual fault is electrical - the consequence of that is that it causes problems with the gearbox behaviour. Although it sounds poor, I'm not all that surprised that the dealer says the electrical fault isn't covered by the warranty but the gearbox would be (if the gearbox was actually faulty).
I suspect that the only option you will have is to get an auto electrician to see if they can solve the problems with the lights.
So the 'right to reject' policy doesn't cover electical issues? even though it makes the car unfit for purpose? If you have bought a brand new car - or a 6 month old car - you would reasonably expect it to have far less problems than a 15 year old car with xxxx miles on it. Absolute value is less of an issue.
It does sound like the actual fault is electrical - the consequence of that is that it causes problems with the gearbox behaviour. Although it sounds poor, I'm not all that surprised that the dealer says the electrical fault isn't covered by the warranty but the gearbox would be (if the gearbox was actually faulty).
I suspect that the only option you will have is to get an auto electrician to see if they can solve the problems with the lights.
SistersofPercy said:
Random question. Do you have a sunroof?
Years ago I had a clio that exhibited pretty much what you describe. Turned out the sun roof on many Renault models of that era are not the best and water tracks in down the pillars to the passenger side where helpfully the 'brain' is located. I cant remember what the part was called (helpful, sorry!) but it was some kind of electrical control module for the car.
From memory it cost me about £300 to replace it.
No it doesn't have a sunroof Years ago I had a clio that exhibited pretty much what you describe. Turned out the sun roof on many Renault models of that era are not the best and water tracks in down the pillars to the passenger side where helpfully the 'brain' is located. I cant remember what the part was called (helpful, sorry!) but it was some kind of electrical control module for the car.
From memory it cost me about £300 to replace it.
amyfairylou said:
Unfortunately scrapping it after saving up the money to buy it isn't an option and we equally can't afford to get a huge electrical repair done either by another garage. The warrant coverd 'major mechanical fault' which does cover the gear box but according to the service guy not the wiring to the gear box. but surely it doesn't matter if it is worth a tenner or fifty grand, they have sold something that is faulty over and over again, that surely makes it their responsibilty?
So financially writing it off isn't an option, that's fair and it must be both a frustration and a concern for you in that instance.The fault you have described may have an impact on the mechanical side of the car (gearbox) but it sounds to be an electrical fault, which therefore may be outside of your warranty cover. I'm not saying it's ok for a dealer to sell a lemon, but the car being absolutely fine for the first two months and then developing a fault that's outside of warranty is, unfortunately, a risk that has to be considered when buying a 15+ year old car.
With regards to final value of the car and whether that matters, this is less of a legal point and more of a personal one, would you be persuing small claims court if the car was £50? £250? It's all subjective based on what that amount of money means to you and whether you care enough to pursue it.
Having now passed 6 months from purchase date, you may now have the liability of you having to prove the fault was present at time of purchase - Hard to do when nothing came of it for two months.
I'm not saying you have to be happy about this, but it doesn't sound like there's much going in your favor in this instance and I believe you would likely be throwing good money after bad money if you pursued it any further.
XR said:
I sympathise
I bought an approved used 3 year old BMW with 12 months extended warranty, it didn't cover electrical issues!
Yes, similar for me. Two weeks ago, I had to pay for my rear indicator to be replaced because my warranty "excludes water ingress". Whilst I accept that if I leave the window open, it's not the warranty company's job to fix my electrics - I think that water getting into a light unit is a tad different.....I bought an approved used 3 year old BMW with 12 months extended warranty, it didn't cover electrical issues!
It does sound a bit like the OPs problem is bad earth / water problems with electrics so I would not be surprised if the dealer warranty didn't cover it. I'm sure it's very frustrating that it then makes the car stuck because of the effect it has on the gearbox.
Volvolover said:
I'm surprised i'm even reading this
16 year old £1k FRENCH car that worked fine at point of purchase then has electrical issues two months later.....i think you're going to struggle if you try to go legal and any victory would be phyrric at the least.
Fixed that for you.16 year old £1k FRENCH car that worked fine at point of purchase then has electrical issues two months later.....i think you're going to struggle if you try to go legal and any victory would be phyrric at the least.
J1990 said:
So financially writing it off isn't an option, that's fair and it must be both a frustration and a concern for you in that instance.
The fault you have described may have an impact on the mechanical side of the car (gearbox) but it sounds to be an electrical fault, which therefore may be outside of your warranty cover. I'm not saying it's ok for a dealer to sell a lemon, but the car being absolutely fine for the first two months and then developing a fault that's outside of warranty is, unfortunately, a risk that has to be considered when buying a 15+ year old car.
With regards to final value of the car and whether that matters, this is less of a legal point and more of a personal one, would you be persuing small claims court if the car was £50? £250? It's all subjective based on what that amount of money means to you and whether you care enough to pursue it.
Having now passed 6 months from purchase date, you may now have the liability of you having to prove the fault was present at time of purchase - Hard to do when nothing came of it for two months.
I'm not saying you have to be happy about this, but it doesn't sound like there's much going in your favor in this instance and I believe you would likely be throwing good money after bad money if you pursued it any further.
This is the best advice you are going to get.The fault you have described may have an impact on the mechanical side of the car (gearbox) but it sounds to be an electrical fault, which therefore may be outside of your warranty cover. I'm not saying it's ok for a dealer to sell a lemon, but the car being absolutely fine for the first two months and then developing a fault that's outside of warranty is, unfortunately, a risk that has to be considered when buying a 15+ year old car.
With regards to final value of the car and whether that matters, this is less of a legal point and more of a personal one, would you be persuing small claims court if the car was £50? £250? It's all subjective based on what that amount of money means to you and whether you care enough to pursue it.
Having now passed 6 months from purchase date, you may now have the liability of you having to prove the fault was present at time of purchase - Hard to do when nothing came of it for two months.
I'm not saying you have to be happy about this, but it doesn't sound like there's much going in your favor in this instance and I believe you would likely be throwing good money after bad money if you pursued it any further.
I sympathise, but as others said its a 16 year old car bought basically at the end of its life.
If a 16 year old car is at the end of its life, then should a dealer be selling it?
Its obviously reasonable to say the expectations of a 16 year old car should be different to a new car; but seems to unfair to go as far as to basically say it's disposable. The op isn't complaining that some feature of the car like an electric window isn't functioning, or that it needs a suspension overhaul. The car is undriveable with this fault which has re-occured having been identified within 3 months or so after buying from a dealer.
I think there is a reasonable question as to what the liability of the dealer should be. It being worth pursuing through small claims is another question, both the financial and stress cost.
If you decide to take it elsewhere then try an auto electrican /garage that has one/has one they use for issues. It might be worth paying for 3rd party diagnostics at (an independent) garage to figure out how much it will cost to put it back on the road.
I hope you get it sorted, good luck.
Its obviously reasonable to say the expectations of a 16 year old car should be different to a new car; but seems to unfair to go as far as to basically say it's disposable. The op isn't complaining that some feature of the car like an electric window isn't functioning, or that it needs a suspension overhaul. The car is undriveable with this fault which has re-occured having been identified within 3 months or so after buying from a dealer.
I think there is a reasonable question as to what the liability of the dealer should be. It being worth pursuing through small claims is another question, both the financial and stress cost.
If you decide to take it elsewhere then try an auto electrican /garage that has one/has one they use for issues. It might be worth paying for 3rd party diagnostics at (an independent) garage to figure out how much it will cost to put it back on the road.
I hope you get it sorted, good luck.
deebs said:
If a 16 year old car is at the end of its life, then should a dealer be selling it?
Its obviously reasonable to say the expectations of a 16 year old car should be different to a new car; but seems to unfair to go as far as to basically say it's disposable. The op isn't complaining that some feature of the car like an electric window isn't functioning, or that it needs a suspension overhaul. The car is undriveable with this fault which has re-occured having been identified within 3 months or so after buying from a dealer.
I think there is a reasonable question as to what the liability of the dealer should be. It being worth pursuing through small claims is another question, both the financial and stress cost.
If you decide to take it elsewhere then try an auto electrican /garage that has one/has one they use for issues. It might be worth paying for 3rd party diagnostics at (an independent) garage to figure out how much it will cost to put it back on the road.
I hope you get it sorted, good luck.
The seller sold a functioning car, we're not talking about a car that broke down on the first drive home. We're talking about an old car that was functioning perfectly fine for two months and then broke. If it's an electric fault that's outside of warranty and wasn't present at point of sale then yes, it is entirely fair to say that the car 'then' became disposable if the repair cost could exceed the value of the car. It doesn't mean it was disposable as and when it was sold.Its obviously reasonable to say the expectations of a 16 year old car should be different to a new car; but seems to unfair to go as far as to basically say it's disposable. The op isn't complaining that some feature of the car like an electric window isn't functioning, or that it needs a suspension overhaul. The car is undriveable with this fault which has re-occured having been identified within 3 months or so after buying from a dealer.
I think there is a reasonable question as to what the liability of the dealer should be. It being worth pursuing through small claims is another question, both the financial and stress cost.
If you decide to take it elsewhere then try an auto electrican /garage that has one/has one they use for issues. It might be worth paying for 3rd party diagnostics at (an independent) garage to figure out how much it will cost to put it back on the road.
I hope you get it sorted, good luck.
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