C - Max Eco-boost - crank no fire
Discussion
Hello all,
I've often stumbled across this forum looking for technical answers and found it very helpful in the past. Never actually posted before, but I'm in a fix and hoping I may be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge.
I have a 2013 C-Max with a 1l eco-boost engine. A couple of weeks ago I was doing some DIY runs, popped into screwstation to collect an order and on returning to the car it would not fire. Would crank happily but no start. Knowing better than to keep cranking, I tried some basic troubleshooting and started pulling fuses for fuel pump etc but nothing seemed to work. In the end I followed the flooded engine procedure in the manual and after a bit of persistent cranking the car started and off I went. On arriving at my destination I switched off and thought I'd try again. Started no problem. Left car overnight and the next day had the same issue as before. After about 10 minutes of cranking, letting starter cool and trying again I got it started. I proceeded to drive 60 miles with no perceivable change in performance to what is normal. Stopped at a fuel station, jumped in, started fine. Got home, left overnight and this time no amount of cranking worked, it was dead. Called local mechanic who has done some diagnostics, couldn't get to the bottom of it and has sent to an auto-electrician. The auto electrician found a bad earth sorted it and got it started. They called to say they would leave overnight just to check again when cold and will be back with me the next day. Same thing again the next day!
I've just had a call from the local mechanic who said they've done some compression tests. He said the worst cylinder was about 20 psi and the best around 120psi (I may have that wrong, but that was the ballpark difference). Suddenly the words 'new engine' were mentioned! Apparently these engines are a poorly designed nightmare and essentially a sealed unit. To the point that ford offer discounts on replacement engines (which sounds like an admission of guilt to me). With discount included, the install of the new block inc. labour is quoted at £3744! What I can't get my head around is that when I did get it started it was as if nothing was wrong. How can it need a new engine!
I will clarify, I could not rate the mechanics services enough. He's given me a replacement car which he's in no hurry to take back. Has said he would buy the C Max for £500 as a non-runner and will cover any charges to date. Even offered to check out any new car I may purchase free of charge. I'm not second guessing his diagnosis. But I have to exhaust my options as we took a £5k loan out two years ago thinking we'll finally invest in something half nice as a family car after years of £1k runarounds. (Turns out these days you can't even get one of those for less than £2k!).
Additional info -
The car was serviced back in January, we wondered if the wrong oil had been put in (I know the EB can be very sensitive) but according to the records that's all correct.
There has always been a little water leak around the turbo. I have watched this like a hawk, have to top up the water with <1/2 a litre over 3 months or so and checking the temperature gauge is a habitual part of my driving scan. Never seen it get hot.
About 80k miles on the clock.
Does anyone have any suggestions before I head to halfords for a Claud Butler and kiddie trailer and spend the next 3 years paying for the privilege!
Thanks in advance!
I've often stumbled across this forum looking for technical answers and found it very helpful in the past. Never actually posted before, but I'm in a fix and hoping I may be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge.
I have a 2013 C-Max with a 1l eco-boost engine. A couple of weeks ago I was doing some DIY runs, popped into screwstation to collect an order and on returning to the car it would not fire. Would crank happily but no start. Knowing better than to keep cranking, I tried some basic troubleshooting and started pulling fuses for fuel pump etc but nothing seemed to work. In the end I followed the flooded engine procedure in the manual and after a bit of persistent cranking the car started and off I went. On arriving at my destination I switched off and thought I'd try again. Started no problem. Left car overnight and the next day had the same issue as before. After about 10 minutes of cranking, letting starter cool and trying again I got it started. I proceeded to drive 60 miles with no perceivable change in performance to what is normal. Stopped at a fuel station, jumped in, started fine. Got home, left overnight and this time no amount of cranking worked, it was dead. Called local mechanic who has done some diagnostics, couldn't get to the bottom of it and has sent to an auto-electrician. The auto electrician found a bad earth sorted it and got it started. They called to say they would leave overnight just to check again when cold and will be back with me the next day. Same thing again the next day!
I've just had a call from the local mechanic who said they've done some compression tests. He said the worst cylinder was about 20 psi and the best around 120psi (I may have that wrong, but that was the ballpark difference). Suddenly the words 'new engine' were mentioned! Apparently these engines are a poorly designed nightmare and essentially a sealed unit. To the point that ford offer discounts on replacement engines (which sounds like an admission of guilt to me). With discount included, the install of the new block inc. labour is quoted at £3744! What I can't get my head around is that when I did get it started it was as if nothing was wrong. How can it need a new engine!
I will clarify, I could not rate the mechanics services enough. He's given me a replacement car which he's in no hurry to take back. Has said he would buy the C Max for £500 as a non-runner and will cover any charges to date. Even offered to check out any new car I may purchase free of charge. I'm not second guessing his diagnosis. But I have to exhaust my options as we took a £5k loan out two years ago thinking we'll finally invest in something half nice as a family car after years of £1k runarounds. (Turns out these days you can't even get one of those for less than £2k!).
Additional info -
The car was serviced back in January, we wondered if the wrong oil had been put in (I know the EB can be very sensitive) but according to the records that's all correct.
There has always been a little water leak around the turbo. I have watched this like a hawk, have to top up the water with <1/2 a litre over 3 months or so and checking the temperature gauge is a habitual part of my driving scan. Never seen it get hot.
About 80k miles on the clock.
Does anyone have any suggestions before I head to halfords for a Claud Butler and kiddie trailer and spend the next 3 years paying for the privilege!
Thanks in advance!
If it's intermittent like that then it isn't a mechanical problem and is probably electronic. That compression test result is a worry though. If it's repeatable, you would expect that cylinder to be dead and you would certainly have noticed that while the engine was running. I expect your mechanic would want to re-run the test, maybe do a leak-down test, take the rocker cover off and confirm the valve train is working as normal, maybe stick an endoscope down there to check for evidence of internal damage. There's a lot you'd want to check before handing over thousands for a new engine.
To diagnose the starting problem I'd start by monitoring fuel pressure, injector duty cycle, spark strength and timing. It may be something as simple as a coolant temp sensor telling your engine it is cold and flooding it.
To diagnose the starting problem I'd start by monitoring fuel pressure, injector duty cycle, spark strength and timing. It may be something as simple as a coolant temp sensor telling your engine it is cold and flooding it.
Jesus wept.......a new engine because one cylinder appears to have low compression ? One cylinder low on compression will not prevent a car from starting.
And on such a modern engine.....the 120psi call on the other cylinders sounds unrealistic. IMO it should be higher. Which could either be a poor engine, poor gauge, poor test procedure.
The only one thing you can take from it is one is less than the others though.
You say Ford acknowledge a problem with these engines....so what exactly is that problem or mode of failure ? Is your scenario exactly what the alleged problem is ?
In many respects, a non starter is a good scenario for a mechanic, as this is far far easier to diagnose than an intermittent fault that may not present itself.
And whilst he may be genuine.....( if you've known him and trust him for a long time ), the offer to buy a car that needs a £4k engine.....rings alarm bells of he knows it does not need an engine, and is looking a quick profit off it.
So Basics...fuel, air spark. What is missing ?
Are there any fault codes ? Does all sensor data appear normal ? first port of call for a non cold start would be coolant temp sensor. Is this reading normally ?
And on such a modern engine.....the 120psi call on the other cylinders sounds unrealistic. IMO it should be higher. Which could either be a poor engine, poor gauge, poor test procedure.
The only one thing you can take from it is one is less than the others though.
You say Ford acknowledge a problem with these engines....so what exactly is that problem or mode of failure ? Is your scenario exactly what the alleged problem is ?
In many respects, a non starter is a good scenario for a mechanic, as this is far far easier to diagnose than an intermittent fault that may not present itself.
And whilst he may be genuine.....( if you've known him and trust him for a long time ), the offer to buy a car that needs a £4k engine.....rings alarm bells of he knows it does not need an engine, and is looking a quick profit off it.
So Basics...fuel, air spark. What is missing ?
Are there any fault codes ? Does all sensor data appear normal ? first port of call for a non cold start would be coolant temp sensor. Is this reading normally ?
Thanks both for the responses and sorry it's taken a while for me to acknowledge (PH doesn't allow newbies to post in the evenings apparently). I am in agreement and disbelief that, that is the conclusion that has been reached.
According to the mechanic the 'failure mode' that ford recognise is the engine having little to no tolerance for overheating combined with a relatively small cooling water capacity and a known issue with the pipes that take water to the the turbo which causes them to leak.
You've made some points and in all honesty I would normally have done some more digging before calling in the mechanic but the fact that we had just moved in and I had just demolished our bathroom gave me little patience. From what you've said I think I will first ensure they have exhausted all the options (the temp sensor sounds plausible as it felt like a flooded engine and would fit with the fact it ran fine once started) and then get the car back on to my driveway and review my options before making any hasty decisions!
Thanks again and I may be back!
According to the mechanic the 'failure mode' that ford recognise is the engine having little to no tolerance for overheating combined with a relatively small cooling water capacity and a known issue with the pipes that take water to the the turbo which causes them to leak.
You've made some points and in all honesty I would normally have done some more digging before calling in the mechanic but the fact that we had just moved in and I had just demolished our bathroom gave me little patience. From what you've said I think I will first ensure they have exhausted all the options (the temp sensor sounds plausible as it felt like a flooded engine and would fit with the fact it ran fine once started) and then get the car back on to my driveway and review my options before making any hasty decisions!
Thanks again and I may be back!
holding4release said:
Thanks both for the responses and sorry it's taken a while for me to acknowledge (PH doesn't allow newbies to post in the evenings apparently). I am in agreement and disbelief that, that is the conclusion that has been reached.
According to the mechanic the 'failure mode' that ford recognise is the engine having little to no tolerance for overheating combined with a relatively small cooling water capacity and a known issue with the pipes that take water to the the turbo which causes them to leak.
You've made some points and in all honesty I would normally have done some more digging before calling in the mechanic but the fact that we had just moved in and I had just demolished our bathroom gave me little patience. From what you've said I think I will first ensure they have exhausted all the options (the temp sensor sounds plausible as it felt like a flooded engine and would fit with the fact it ran fine once started) and then get the car back on to my driveway and review my options before making any hasty decisions!
Thanks again and I may be back!
But you did not have leaks or overheating ?According to the mechanic the 'failure mode' that ford recognise is the engine having little to no tolerance for overheating combined with a relatively small cooling water capacity and a known issue with the pipes that take water to the the turbo which causes them to leak.
You've made some points and in all honesty I would normally have done some more digging before calling in the mechanic but the fact that we had just moved in and I had just demolished our bathroom gave me little patience. From what you've said I think I will first ensure they have exhausted all the options (the temp sensor sounds plausible as it felt like a flooded engine and would fit with the fact it ran fine once started) and then get the car back on to my driveway and review my options before making any hasty decisions!
Thanks again and I may be back!
Lack of cold start from faulty temp sensor ( the sensor could be checked in about 30 seconds ) is unlikely to flood the plugs. It would be a lack of fuel non start, not excessive fuel.
Of course....during a non start...are the plugs wet ?
stevieturbo said:
But you did not have leaks or overheating ?
You are right, I have never seen it overheat and I was particularly conscious of temp. when driving the 60 miles. That said when the mechanic lifted the lid on my driveway I did notice the level in the expansion tank was a few cm below the line (cold) stevieturbo said:
Lack of cold start from faulty temp sensor ( the sensor could be checked in about 30 seconds ) is unlikely to flood the plugs. It would be a lack of fuel non start, not excessive fuel.
Makes sense I was thinking the other way around and that a faulty sensor would cause the car to think it's cold all the time thus triggering a over rich start. From what you are saying that wouldn't prevent the start in any case.Out of desperation I could ford HQ yesterday and they confirmed there's a known issue with that particular model relating to a water leak. They said they would run some diagnostics and that if that was found to be the case they would replace the engine free of charge, irrespective of past servicing and where we purchased etc. If it's not I will have to pay for the diagnostics, but happy to take that gamble at this stage!
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