Yaris GR vs Civic type r on wet b roads?
Discussion
Has anyone done a comparison between a Yaris GR (with or without litchfeld mods) driving on wet and/or damp b roads? Does the 4wd really make a difference? A back to back test over a few hours driving would be fascinating. Moreover which would be the safer more trustworthy drive?
I notice that most magazines haven't really done this, excerpting for evo's coty, where they were less than clear about the specific handling attributes of these two on the b roads they were driving them back to back on. They mentioned something about the civic r not being able to make up any ground to the Yaris. j
I notice that most magazines haven't really done this, excerpting for evo's coty, where they were less than clear about the specific handling attributes of these two on the b roads they were driving them back to back on. They mentioned something about the civic r not being able to make up any ground to the Yaris. j
4 WD makes a massive difference on roads like that. Massive. I can attest to a stock Fiesta ST on pilot sport 4 tyres vs a mapped Evo 6 . Out of corners, the Jap wagon just goes, even in the wet. The Ford is always struggling for traction through first and second, occasionally third to!.
If you had a closed road and the skills to use it, I suspect the Yaris would be...shorter wheelbase and 4wd.
That said, I can't apply maximum attack in my 12y.o. FD2 down the local B-roads because it'd be (a) licence-losing; and (b) anti-social to the point of stupidity, in terms of actual speeds attained vs ability to stop in the event of an obstacle. Can only imagine 10 years of progress making that even more of a problem.
That said, I can't apply maximum attack in my 12y.o. FD2 down the local B-roads because it'd be (a) licence-losing; and (b) anti-social to the point of stupidity, in terms of actual speeds attained vs ability to stop in the event of an obstacle. Can only imagine 10 years of progress making that even more of a problem.
havoc said:
If you had a closed road and the skills to use it, I suspect the Yaris would be...shorter wheelbase and 4wd.
That said, I can't apply maximum attack in my 12y.o. FD2 down the local B-roads because it'd be (a) licence-losing; and (b) anti-social to the point of stupidity, in terms of actual speeds attained vs ability to stop in the event of an obstacle. Can only imagine 10 years of progress making that even more of a problem.
The Yaris is only 141mm shorter so whilst a shorter wheelbase its often believed to be much shorter. That said, I can't apply maximum attack in my 12y.o. FD2 down the local B-roads because it'd be (a) licence-losing; and (b) anti-social to the point of stupidity, in terms of actual speeds attained vs ability to stop in the event of an obstacle. Can only imagine 10 years of progress making that even more of a problem.
Cliffe60 said:
Having owned an Impreza for many years, I would never consider buying another performance car without AWD.
It just make the power so much useable unless you are talking about a perfect surface.
You'd be surprised how much more traction modern rubber and modern suspension design gives a car vs 20 years ago...It just make the power so much useable unless you are talking about a perfect surface.
Cliffe60 said:
Having owned an Impreza for many years, I would never consider buying another performance car without AWD.
It just make the power so much useable unless you are talking about a perfect surface.
I have had scoobies in the past. I think the FK8 Type R would surprise you, It really is that good. Yes the 4wd is great for booting it off the line at wet roundabouts etc, but the Type R is by no means struggling in wet conditions.It just make the power so much useable unless you are talking about a perfect surface.
That said, I wouldnt want to be going at speeds that warrant 4wd over the Civic's 2wd in wet conditions.
I'm not really interested in performance numbers for a road car, anything even mildly warm will let you go quick enough on the road, so rather than any "X drops 5 seconds a lap in the wet, but Y drops 7" type stuff, I'd say drive both and see which you prefer the feel of.
It really doesn't matter how fast something is, what matters is whether you enjoy driving it.
It really doesn't matter how fast something is, what matters is whether you enjoy driving it.
Cliffe60 said:
Having owned an Impreza for many years, I would never consider buying another performance car without AWD.
It just make the power so much useable unless you are talking about a perfect surface.
I agree. They and the Evo were a game changer back in the day.It just make the power so much useable unless you are talking about a perfect surface.
Imagine how much 'better' they would be on modern rubber and electronic stability software.
Tommo87 said:
Imagine how much 'better' they would be on modern rubber and electronic stability software.
Yep, probably boring as hell, just like the Golf R and fast Audis.The reason those cars were as fun as they were was because they were adjustable, and because their limits weren't ridiculously high that you needed to be risking your licence to experience that adjustability.
havoc said:
Tommo87 said:
Imagine how much 'better' they would be on modern rubber and electronic stability software.
Yep, probably boring as hell, just like the Golf R and fast Audis.The reason those cars were as fun as they were was because they were adjustable, and because their limits weren't ridiculously high that you needed to be risking your licence to experience that adjustability.
Re Impreza v Golf R, despite not having any electronic gizmos , I have never been able to provoke the slightest slide or even a squeeling wheel from the Impreza on a dry road.
Even in the wet, any twitch is corrected by simply backing of the power a bit. You need gravel or snow to get any sort of slide going.
Whether the same driver could make faster progress with car a over car b is a moot point, what i've found over the years is how much easier and safer on the road a Subaru Forester or Outback (had both, reasonably fast ones) can be in poor conditions, which is when that superb full time 4WD system comes into its own, i don't want to feel a car struggling for grip or find myself hoping for the best i want to feel confident that when a space to pull out on a fast road presents itself i can take to make rapid progress but safely, not incoveniencing or endangering anyone else or making meself looks a plank through fruitless wheelspins.
Wet roads on less than ideal surfaces you also don't want rock hard suspensions, too hard and they 'hop' over bumps and undulations on corners, uncomfortable and twitchy handling, give me Subarus les sporty approach to performance safe handling every time in the real world.
Wet roads on less than ideal surfaces you also don't want rock hard suspensions, too hard and they 'hop' over bumps and undulations on corners, uncomfortable and twitchy handling, give me Subarus les sporty approach to performance safe handling every time in the real world.
I think you're both missing the point...
Some people...especially those that buy (some) hot Hondas or (most) fast Renaults...enjoy the feeling of an agile, 'loose' car underneath them - a car that feels very adjustable and biddable. To those owners, ultimate pace (road or track) often isn't the key thing. Ultimate grip certainly isn't.
...so they'll happily trade that nice, safe, secure 4wd (with all the associated extra weight and understeer) for something that gives the above characteristics. And that doesn't make the car more dangerous, it means the owner needs to be aware of the car's behaviour more, respect it more, and drive to the conditions more...
...which might actually make the car/driver LESS likely to have an accident. Certainly a disproportionate amount of the track-day smashes I've seen have come from 4wd cars where the owner hasn't thought (either in the heat of the moment or at all, ever) about how the car will behave WHEN it loses grip...possibly because they've never encountered it on the road before due to the higher limits.
Some people...especially those that buy (some) hot Hondas or (most) fast Renaults...enjoy the feeling of an agile, 'loose' car underneath them - a car that feels very adjustable and biddable. To those owners, ultimate pace (road or track) often isn't the key thing. Ultimate grip certainly isn't.
...so they'll happily trade that nice, safe, secure 4wd (with all the associated extra weight and understeer) for something that gives the above characteristics. And that doesn't make the car more dangerous, it means the owner needs to be aware of the car's behaviour more, respect it more, and drive to the conditions more...
...which might actually make the car/driver LESS likely to have an accident. Certainly a disproportionate amount of the track-day smashes I've seen have come from 4wd cars where the owner hasn't thought (either in the heat of the moment or at all, ever) about how the car will behave WHEN it loses grip...possibly because they've never encountered it on the road before due to the higher limits.
InitialDave said:
The Yaris is lighter than the Civic, and doesn't drive the way an old Subaru does.
I know - it appears to have inherited an element of (Mitsubishi) Evo-like behaviour, which is great to see. It's also a whole class smaller than the Civic, so that's not a fair comparison.Anyway, I was referring to the two posters above espousing how much better their Subarus were...
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