Wheel Alignment/Camber Setting Issues
Discussion
Hi - looking for some help/advice.
Took my car [Kia] to the local independent tyre garage in January for wheel alignment on their Hunter machine. Toe and camber were all 'green' - caster was 'red' on both front wheels - but put down to the usual wear and tear [90k miles on the clock]. Steering felt spot on.
A few weeks later [as part of an MOT 'service' by the main dealer] a ball joint on the front nearside had to be replaced - throwing alignment out.
Took it back to the local tyre garage for re-alignment. However, the car pulled slightly to the left afterwards. I noticed that on the printout, the camber on the offside front was now slightly 'out' - and different from the figures from the previous alignment in January.
So took the car back and was told that camber wasn't adjustable [with a shrug of the shoulders] - and was told either to live with it or buy some camber adjustment bolts.
This I did [from Pedders] and the same independent tyre garage then fitted them. The steering felt perfect and the Hunter printout showed camber now matched on the front wheels.
I drove the car for about 30 miles and then noticed a pronounced 'thunk' when turning left or right.
Took it back to the garage and they reported that the camber bolts had worked themselves 'loose'.
To cure this - they tightened the bolts [using their words] "tight as *&%$" [in excess of 200 N-m].
The car now has a slight pull again to the left and I'm wondering how 'safe' everything is.
Lots of issues and questions here.
1. I know that Hunter alignment is the gold standard - but is it possible/likely that this garage could have c0cked-up that alignment?
2. I have some evidence that over tightening camber bolts is a 'no-no'. That this might be the reason that the bolts 'let go' in the first place and that tightening them even more [as the garage has now done] is a really bad idea. [One supplier states on their website NOT to over-tighten beyond 120 N-m]
3. Is fitting camber adjustment bolts generally fraught with problems? Or should it be a simple thing to do?
My gut feeling is that I need to take the car to another garage for a conversation. I think I'd like to get someone who can be trusted to fit another set of camber bolts and re-align once more. Preferably a garage that does this sort of thing on a regular basis.
Can anyone suggest a garage that has the necessary skills [and has a Hunter system] to do that?
I'm in Kent - midway between Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells.
Thanks in advance....
Took my car [Kia] to the local independent tyre garage in January for wheel alignment on their Hunter machine. Toe and camber were all 'green' - caster was 'red' on both front wheels - but put down to the usual wear and tear [90k miles on the clock]. Steering felt spot on.
A few weeks later [as part of an MOT 'service' by the main dealer] a ball joint on the front nearside had to be replaced - throwing alignment out.
Took it back to the local tyre garage for re-alignment. However, the car pulled slightly to the left afterwards. I noticed that on the printout, the camber on the offside front was now slightly 'out' - and different from the figures from the previous alignment in January.
So took the car back and was told that camber wasn't adjustable [with a shrug of the shoulders] - and was told either to live with it or buy some camber adjustment bolts.
This I did [from Pedders] and the same independent tyre garage then fitted them. The steering felt perfect and the Hunter printout showed camber now matched on the front wheels.
I drove the car for about 30 miles and then noticed a pronounced 'thunk' when turning left or right.
Took it back to the garage and they reported that the camber bolts had worked themselves 'loose'.
To cure this - they tightened the bolts [using their words] "tight as *&%$" [in excess of 200 N-m].
The car now has a slight pull again to the left and I'm wondering how 'safe' everything is.
Lots of issues and questions here.
1. I know that Hunter alignment is the gold standard - but is it possible/likely that this garage could have c0cked-up that alignment?
2. I have some evidence that over tightening camber bolts is a 'no-no'. That this might be the reason that the bolts 'let go' in the first place and that tightening them even more [as the garage has now done] is a really bad idea. [One supplier states on their website NOT to over-tighten beyond 120 N-m]
3. Is fitting camber adjustment bolts generally fraught with problems? Or should it be a simple thing to do?
My gut feeling is that I need to take the car to another garage for a conversation. I think I'd like to get someone who can be trusted to fit another set of camber bolts and re-align once more. Preferably a garage that does this sort of thing on a regular basis.
Can anyone suggest a garage that has the necessary skills [and has a Hunter system] to do that?
I'm in Kent - midway between Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells.
Thanks in advance....
1. You could have the best equipment in the world, rendered useless by incompetent operators.
2. They are retarded if they cannot tighten a bolt correctly. Maybe it was just an unlucky freak occurrence though.
And yes it would be very foolish to tighten camber bolts excessively.
3. No, generally they are fine. Some cars use them as standard, although not common.
Not 100% sure if he offers alignment, but you could try https://www.facebook.com/NWJAutocare/
He is a member on some of these forums.
2. They are retarded if they cannot tighten a bolt correctly. Maybe it was just an unlucky freak occurrence though.
And yes it would be very foolish to tighten camber bolts excessively.
3. No, generally they are fine. Some cars use them as standard, although not common.
Not 100% sure if he offers alignment, but you could try https://www.facebook.com/NWJAutocare/
He is a member on some of these forums.
bunzena said:
A few weeks later [as part of an MOT 'service' by the main dealer] a ball joint on the front nearside had to be replaced - throwing alignment out.
You should have had both replaced & then the alignment sorted again.Also, as ST has suggested the best equipment in the world is of less use that a chocolate fire guard when operated by a chimp!
Thanks ST and E-bmw. Wise words. Good to have some clear thinking - thank you.
Unfortunately ST - doesn't look like NWJ have the Hunter system. Any other thoughts? I'm keen to find somewhere that can try again with new Camber bolts and get the alignment sorted once and for all. Someone that has done it before and knows what they are doing.
And E-bmw - I suspected that ball joints should be replaced in pairs [like most tyre/suspension components].
The main dealer never offered it - and I had my eye off the ball.
Unfortunately ST - doesn't look like NWJ have the Hunter system. Any other thoughts? I'm keen to find somewhere that can try again with new Camber bolts and get the alignment sorted once and for all. Someone that has done it before and knows what they are doing.
And E-bmw - I suspected that ball joints should be replaced in pairs [like most tyre/suspension components].
The main dealer never offered it - and I had my eye off the ball.
bunzena said:
Thanks ST and E-bmw. Wise words. Good to have some clear thinking - thank you.
Unfortunately ST - doesn't look like NWJ have the Hunter system. Any other thoughts? I'm keen to find somewhere that can try again with new Camber bolts and get the alignment sorted once and for all. Someone that has done it before and knows what they are doing.
And E-bmw - I suspected that ball joints should be replaced in pairs [like most tyre/suspension components].
The main dealer never offered it - and I had my eye off the ball.
Forget about your insistence on a Hunter system, be more insistent on finding somewhere who actually knows what they are doing with a 4 wheel alignment rig, it will likely be cheaper & you will certainly get a better result.Unfortunately ST - doesn't look like NWJ have the Hunter system. Any other thoughts? I'm keen to find somewhere that can try again with new Camber bolts and get the alignment sorted once and for all. Someone that has done it before and knows what they are doing.
And E-bmw - I suspected that ball joints should be replaced in pairs [like most tyre/suspension components].
The main dealer never offered it - and I had my eye off the ball.
You shouldn't have needed to buy additional stuff to achieve what the manufacturer achieves without it.
They should have known (both dealer & aligner) that they should have been done in pars & that it wasn't worth aligning the car until any issues were corrected rather than added to.
Edited by E-bmw on Thursday 19th November 16:24
E-bmw said:
Forget about your insistence on a Hunter system, be more insistent on finding somewhere who actually knows what they are doing with a 4 wheel alignment rig, it will likely be cheaper & you will certainly get a better result.
You shouldn't have needed to buy additional stuff to achieve what the manufacturer achieves without it.
They should have known (both dealer & aligner) that they should have been done in pars & that it wasn't worth aligning the car until any issues were corrected rather than added to.
This all makes perfect sense. I think I can now see "the wood for the trees". Thanks very much.You shouldn't have needed to buy additional stuff to achieve what the manufacturer achieves without it.
They should have known (both dealer & aligner) that they should have been done in pars & that it wasn't worth aligning the car until any issues were corrected rather than added to.
Edited by E-bmw on Thursday 19th November 16:24
GreenV8S said:
It isn't hard to level four contact patches, compared to the work of a suspension setup using DIY tools.
If you seen the state of my garage floor....you'd disagree lol.Bunch of blind
s who laid the floor !!! There's a 3" variation and not just in one direction. It's all over the placeThe purpose of my post was to point out it doesn't need to be 'Hunter'. I'm old enough to remember how it had to be a 'Crypton tune', that was the name back in the day.
You don't need to be perfectly level to set toe although 3" all over is no good. That's Irish builders for you
Camber and castor needs to be set on the level, i'm lucky that my shop is just 4mm in the width of the car, I put it on some 4mm plates.
When factory toe tolerances are +/- 2 to 3mm it's easy to get it more accurate.
You don't need to be perfectly level to set toe although 3" all over is no good. That's Irish builders for you
Camber and castor needs to be set on the level, i'm lucky that my shop is just 4mm in the width of the car, I put it on some 4mm plates.
When factory toe tolerances are +/- 2 to 3mm it's easy to get it more accurate.
A chap on one forum used four pairs of polished floor tiles with grease between, levelled up to rest the tyres on, the alignment was done with fishing line etc as described earlier.
The advantage of this method is that you don’t have to roll the car back and forth after each adjustment and if you mark the tiles and floor it's easily repeatable plus you can use the floor space as normal day to day.
I have not used this method yet but I have set alignment with fishing line and when checked on a Hunter rig it was within tolerances.
It’s a painstaking task though and if you can find a trustworthy alignment place then paying out once a year is worth the cost.
The advantage of this method is that you don’t have to roll the car back and forth after each adjustment and if you mark the tiles and floor it's easily repeatable plus you can use the floor space as normal day to day.
I have not used this method yet but I have set alignment with fishing line and when checked on a Hunter rig it was within tolerances.
It’s a painstaking task though and if you can find a trustworthy alignment place then paying out once a year is worth the cost.
kev b said:
A chap on one forum used four pairs of polished floor tiles with grease between, levelled up to rest the tyres on, the alignment was done with fishing line etc as described earlier.
The advantage of this method is that you don’t have to roll the car back and forth after each adjustment and if you mark the tiles and floor it's easily repeatable plus you can use the floor space as normal day to day.
I have not used this method yet but I have set alignment with fishing line and when checked on a Hunter rig it was within tolerances.
It’s a painstaking task though and if you can find a trustworthy alignment place then paying out once a year is worth the cost.
When you do your own you realise that this 'rolling car backwards & forwards doesn't amount to much in reality. Twist the TRE to show 1mm on the string and it's 1mm, it doesn't change. If it bothers you drive your car onto 4 greased empty crisp packets.The advantage of this method is that you don’t have to roll the car back and forth after each adjustment and if you mark the tiles and floor it's easily repeatable plus you can use the floor space as normal day to day.
I have not used this method yet but I have set alignment with fishing line and when checked on a Hunter rig it was within tolerances.
It’s a painstaking task though and if you can find a trustworthy alignment place then paying out once a year is worth the cost.
It is very timeconsuming, but the problem with trusting someone else to do it is you'll never know if it's right, wrong or how accurate it is. At least I KNOW i'm within 0.5mm even though I'm not sensitive to actually feel it
I don't know about Hunter, but many older system lasers are so crap the beam is actually about 5mm thick when it hits the scale at the other end.
There might not be much in it as you measure from the inside edge of the builders line, fishing line is easier to keep taught though.
A problem I have encountered when using Dunlop style tracking gauges is that many wheels don’t have a flat face to rest the probes on, however repeating the measurement a few times usually does the trick, within tolerances anyway.
I like the BMW method where there are holes in the oem wheels allowing measurement to be taken from the hub surface thus elminating any error from buckled wheels etc.
A problem I have encountered when using Dunlop style tracking gauges is that many wheels don’t have a flat face to rest the probes on, however repeating the measurement a few times usually does the trick, within tolerances anyway.
I like the BMW method where there are holes in the oem wheels allowing measurement to be taken from the hub surface thus elminating any error from buckled wheels etc.
I was thinking more of the fluffyness of it with tiny strands sticking out, but yes it's not really an issue.
It is actually easier to tension as it has some spring in it like elastic, a single piece of nylon doesn't have that, that's why brickies use it.
What you can't see in the pic is the car is actually at head height. I made four steel stools and lift the car onto them so I don't have to crawl around on the floor, I can use it to weld cills etc too.
There is a piece of flat bar bolted to each sticking up like a flag pole. A fine saw cut for the string to go through and I just swing them in an out until it forms a string box, parallel and square. You have to watch out for the front track being a different width to the rear of course, I get round that by mounting two wheels on washers to make it all equal.
As said it is time consuming. It would be even more so if I was doing different cars, but once you're set up to do one car it gets quicker and easier to repeat it.
The Rolls Royce of the string method is of course https://www.bg-racing.co.uk/B-G%20Racing-string-li...
It is actually easier to tension as it has some spring in it like elastic, a single piece of nylon doesn't have that, that's why brickies use it.
What you can't see in the pic is the car is actually at head height. I made four steel stools and lift the car onto them so I don't have to crawl around on the floor, I can use it to weld cills etc too.
There is a piece of flat bar bolted to each sticking up like a flag pole. A fine saw cut for the string to go through and I just swing them in an out until it forms a string box, parallel and square. You have to watch out for the front track being a different width to the rear of course, I get round that by mounting two wheels on washers to make it all equal.
As said it is time consuming. It would be even more so if I was doing different cars, but once you're set up to do one car it gets quicker and easier to repeat it.
The Rolls Royce of the string method is of course https://www.bg-racing.co.uk/B-G%20Racing-string-li...
I was tempted by the BG string...but just looked like far too much faffing about.
There are loads of systems out there, and some interesting laser setups from the US, but few are cheap.
I did guy the little Gunsons laser thingy for front tracking...and TBH, whilst functional, just a pain in the hole.
It needs reset after any adjustments. Ideally anything like that needs to hang on the wheels so it never needs re-set after any adjustments.
I've used string, axle stands, all sorts really...they all suck lol. Even seen one guy using a pair of ladders to tie his string to front and back.
Online the Quark ( seems to be Teclamet anyway ) or Sharkeye seem to be some sort of budget setups that should be fairly quick and easy to use. Although they're still in the £1k to £2500 range
It's a lot, but as time goes on I'm more tempted as simply do not trust any tyre places to have the faintest notion how to use their equipment.
One of the biggest places local to me, the amount of times I've seen cars returned from them with the steering wheel not straight is utterly ridiculous, and then they try and claim there is a problem that needs fixed or they need new tyres. It actually seems like a blatant scam to get more money.
If the idiots cannot do the basic of setting the steering wheel straight before making adjustments, they need a good kick in the balls and should never be allowed near a car.
There are loads of systems out there, and some interesting laser setups from the US, but few are cheap.
I did guy the little Gunsons laser thingy for front tracking...and TBH, whilst functional, just a pain in the hole.
It needs reset after any adjustments. Ideally anything like that needs to hang on the wheels so it never needs re-set after any adjustments.
I've used string, axle stands, all sorts really...they all suck lol. Even seen one guy using a pair of ladders to tie his string to front and back.
Online the Quark ( seems to be Teclamet anyway ) or Sharkeye seem to be some sort of budget setups that should be fairly quick and easy to use. Although they're still in the £1k to £2500 range
It's a lot, but as time goes on I'm more tempted as simply do not trust any tyre places to have the faintest notion how to use their equipment.
One of the biggest places local to me, the amount of times I've seen cars returned from them with the steering wheel not straight is utterly ridiculous, and then they try and claim there is a problem that needs fixed or they need new tyres. It actually seems like a blatant scam to get more money.
If the idiots cannot do the basic of setting the steering wheel straight before making adjustments, they need a good kick in the balls and should never be allowed near a car.
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