recommend a motorbike inspection for satisfactory quality

[lard]

Hi folks,

I'm in the midst of a claim against my motorbike finance company for "durability" complaint under consumer rights act,

In short engine paint flaking off due to corrosion - we're at the point where I'm expecting my complaint to be rejected due to 18 months since purchase and not raising within the first 6 months, hence proof of the issue now falls on my shoulders and I need to evidence that 5k miles and 18 months is not a reasonable time for this issue to start happening, and is due to poor quality/lack of durability,

I've tried a couple of places that offer insurance inspections e.t.c. but both advise they don't deal with motorbikes...?

I had an issue with another bike a few years ago and the finance company arranged for an engineer straight away as part of the fact finding, but this time around they seem to just be taking the "it's been more than 6 months and your warranty doesn't cover it" so expecting I will need to have one arranged myself before taking it to the financial services ombudsman.....

Any suggestions on a competent engineer/company that folks can recommend?

Thanks

[Baldchap]

If the issue is cosmetic, it falls down to what can be 'reasonably' expected. Which is obviously very subjective.

The finish is demonstrably flaking, so what do you hope to achieve with an inspection? If this is your preferred approach, you need to prove that the paint quality or painting process is flawed, which a mechanical inspection will not achieve.

Your real issue here is that you need agreement legally that it would not be reasonable to assume corrosion on an 18 month old bike. Is it just yours (neglect?) or are they all affected? If it's the latter then I'd argue you have a better case. Either way, I think it's a court job rather than a chat with the warranty company.

For balance, my five year old MV is corrosion free and has been used in horrendous conditions.

[lard]

Baldchap said:

If the issue is cosmetic, it falls down to what can be 'reasonably' expected. Which is obviously very subjective.

The finish is demonstrably flaking, so what do you hope to achieve with an inspection? If this is your preferred approach, you need to prove that the paint quality or painting process is flawed, which a mechanical inspection will not achieve.

Your real issue here is that you need agreement legally that it would not be reasonable to assume corrosion on an 18 month old bike. Is it just yours (neglect?) or are they all affected? If it's the latter then I'd argue you have a better case. Either way, I think it's a court job rather than a chat with the warranty company.

For balance, my five year old MV is corrosion free and has been used in horrendous conditions.

Hi,

Thanks for the response!

The issue affects a specific part of the case (clutching housing) which, having a machined edge that is applied after paint, allows corrosion to enter underneath and eventually manifests with paint coming away,

I've evidence of this on several different engines, all on the same part, from a question raised on owners forum

Warranty from the manufacturer is a dead end as corrosion excluded so am pursuing under CSA 2015 (I'm in the UK)

As it's advertised as an "Adventure bike" I'm hoping a reasonable person would expect it to handle some easy road riding! - hoping a mechanical inspection will confirm the above (machined edge, not protected, specific part and multiple cases)

Thanks

[gareth h]

Years back I had an original Multistrada, rode it for a week during the winter due to the car being off the road, didn’t wash it down until the end of the week and found flaking paint on the cases, luckily it was inside the warranty period and Ducati replaced the crank cases, so they obviously thought it was a manufacturing issue.

[Boosted LS1]

Of interest, could it be painted by the OP or is it some sort of special finish? When I had bikes I always painted or polished the engine covers. They looked great.

[catso]

gareth h said:

Years back I had an original Multistrada, rode it for a week during the winter due to the car being off the road, didn’t wash it down until the end of the week and found flaking paint on the cases, luckily it was inside the warranty period and Ducati replaced the crank cases, so they obviously thought it was a manufacturing issue.

Surprised Ducati replaced the parts, I thought Ducati engine paint was designed to flake off - perhaps as some sort of 'sacrificial' corrosion...

[lard]

gareth h said:

Years back I had an original Multistrada, rode it for a week during the winter due to the car being off the road, didn’t wash it down until the end of the week and found flaking paint on the cases, luckily it was inside the warranty period and Ducati replaced the crank cases, so they obviously thought it was a manufacturing issue.

Same experience with my riding buddy's BMW GSA - complete engine replacement due to corrosion/paint issues, was a well publicised issue with engines and final drives, all replaced under warranty as recognised as an issue with machining post paint applied that left a surface to be attacked

I suspect my manufacturer (KTM) excluded corrosion in the warranty in light of these issues with other bikes. well done for Ducati for sorting it

[dibblecorse]

catso said:

Surprised Ducati replaced the parts, I thought Ducati engine paint was designed to flake off - perhaps as some sort of 'sacrificial' corrosion...

Its a built in 'long term performance benefit' as the power to weight increases through your ownership term

As for the OP, its an adventure bike, they aren't meant to be pristine, lets hope you never scuff your Rukka gear !

[GriffoDP]

Had this a couple of times with the final drive on the K1300S - and examples of it occurring can be found with every model with the shaft drive.

When I was under manufacturer warranty BMW replaced. When I was under extended insured warranty, nope. Though saying that, nobody gave a crap about the paint on the engine flaking on either bike.

Forgive my ignorance of finance company nuances, but on the dealer side, have they/you suggested good will? If it's one part you'd expect they'd compromise to keep a customer happy. Mind you, have you taken it there for servicing, they seem to like that

It's an odd one, though i'm no engineer, but the whole finishing process where as you say you have a flat surface like a cut through a piece meaning corrosion can get in, seems rubbish, but I assume a method to avoid it costs more overall than the constant replacements, with BMW at least, where everyone is mostly warranty for a while. Though KTM appear not to have that challenge in this case!

[lard]

GriffoDP said:

Forgive my ignorance of finance company nuances, but on the dealer side, have they/you suggested good will? If it's one part you'd expect they'd compromise to keep a customer happy. Mind you, have you taken it there for servicing, they seem to like that

Yes, bought the bike from them directly (it's my 3rd new bike from them and they do all the servicing too) - to be fair they reacted quickly and raised a case with KTM for warranty claim, but as it was rejected by manufacturer they simply said nothing they could do, confirmed directly that they will not cover any repair themselves, no mention of a goodwill gesture - just a suggestion to complain to KTM directly

that's where the finance company nuance comes in as they are equally responsible as the dealer and have an ombudsman that can be used to resolve any disputes about quality/durability

I almost bought a used S1000XR but couldn't see the extra cost from BMW when I could get a new KTM 1290 SAS for the same price (and it comes with a stonking LC8 engine!)..... then see issues with warranty on KTM who only cover the engine, frame and ignition under warranty and exclude everything else... BMW seem to really stand out on after sales care and can now see where the extra cost comes in!

[lard]

Well I came to a frustrating conclusion with the finance company:

26th June:

me " can you recommend an engineer to carry out an inspection as I've tried two now and they don't look at bikes, you will likely have a relationship with a company and I'm happy to pay for the report"
them " we can do if we determine that an inspection is required"

Today:

them: " After a full review and investigation into the points you have raised, I am unable to uphold your complaint on this occasion. The reason for this is that we have not received any evidence from you to indicate that the fault was present at the point of sale "

errrrrr...... o.k. - bit annoying to have one discussion and wait to be told an inspection is needed, then silence for 4 weeks and a rejection because I didn't provide them with an inspection report!

Off to the Ombudsman I go!

[boxedin]

lard said:

As it's advertised as an "Adventure bike" I'm hoping a reasonable person would expect it to handle some easy road riding! - hoping a mechanical inspection will confirm the above (machined edge, not protected, specific part and multiple cases)

Thanks

On a GS/A or any BMW boxer, it's been like this since forever.


That's worst I ever had it, the following GSs were never as bad but it's cosmetic and will happen.

Silver hammerite is a well worn remedy, can't say I ever bothered, even with this:

[Condi]

OP - have you got a picture of the corrosion?

[wa16]

Sidney H Hooper & Co Ltd, Liverpool L33 7SF

https://www.hoopers.org.uk/services/expert-witness...

don't know em bloke in the village works for them

[lard]

Condi said:

OP - have you got a picture of the corrosion?

Hi - sure - as below, it's like this around the circumference of this part (clutch housing I think...) and is only on this one part of the engine:

[Max5476]

Is it just the photo, or is there an oil leak from the bottom of that cover as well?

[lard]

Hi, no, thankfully it's the sheen from ACF50!

[lard]

wa16 said:

Sidney H Hooper & Co Ltd, Liverpool L33 7SF

https://www.hoopers.org.uk/services/expert-witness...

don't know em bloke in the village works for them

awesome thanks - have contacted and asked about availability & quote - appreciated

[lard]

Thought I'd update this and advise what I did in the end and latest status for anyone that's interested or facing a similar problem,

I contacted a few companies including the suggested one and got advised they'd need to dismantle to fully inspect, or that they didn't deal with bikes,

I'm at the Ombudsman investigator stage and they suggested getting in touch with a paint specialist if no joy with the usual car inspection firms that insurance/finance companies use, I asked at the independent garage I use for my cars who they would recommend for paint and found a local specialist who inspected the bike and wrote up his opinion on the paint - essentially poor application / assembly - sharp edges with bare metal that is allowing moisture to get under the paint and corrode causing it to flake off

So provided that to the ombudsman, this was taken into account and investigator determined they should repair the bike and asked them to respond - nothing back from finance company since (been about 2 months waiting for them)

In the meantime I got a quote from the dealer and they advised to repair they would replace any corroded parts (no new engine available, no repaint possible) - considering the paint has started flaking off more parts of the engine (engine case, heads, piston barrels) the cost quoted is just over £8k to repair the paint on the engine (£2k labour, £6k+ in parts with the engine case itself being £1700 of that cost)

I've advised the investigator I'd prefer to reject the bike than have the engine dismantled and re-cased with new pistons, valves, heads e.t.c. as even the dealer stated they never go back together without problems....

That's the latest - pretty fed up with lack of warranty support from manufacturer (original cost to repair when it was just the early stage issue on the clutch cover was around £600), attitude from dealer that it wasn't their problem and finally the way the finance company are just ignoring the ombudsman - probably means it'll go to a full ombudsman decision so I can enforce which will be another 6-9 months

this is an example of the current state:

Edited by lard on Monday 15th March 01:46

[carinaman]

Thanks for the update.