Are modern cars too quick and capable.
Discussion
Posting this as I consider selling my Z4M yet again.
I’ve had a progression of quicker and quicker cars from hot hatches in my late teens through Impreza turbos, to my current z4mc that I’ve had for just over 5 years. From a 5.0 TVR chimera in my late 20’s through to today (42) everything I’ve owned has been RWD and around the 300-350hp mark. I appreciate this isn’t huge power by modern standards, but I just don’t feel you can really use it on the road anyway. As well as my z4m I have an e90 335d as a daily driver and a Caterham style track car which is just under 400bhp per ton. My z4mc on the right road is fantastic, the straight six is electric at higher revs and the handling whilst a bit unsettled is sharp and accurate. Here’s the problem though, the times I actually get to find the right road and it be quiet enough to really stretch its legs are few and far between. When pushing on its then easy to see the wrong side of three digit numbers quite quickly which could easily result in a licence ending conviction. Additionally, many of the times when I do take the z4m anywhere I end up stuck in traffic and with the sharp throttle mapping, heavy clutch and hard suspension I wish I hadn’t bothered and just taken my auto diesel. For a long time I just thought I was getting old and should leave any driving enjoyment I had planned for the track days I do in my kit car and reside myself to a comfy larger diesel car as my only other car.
Last year I bought an R53 Mini Cooper S as an additional runabout for my wife who was racking up too many miles on her lease car, and its been a revelation. Whilst dynamically its handles worse than most cars I’ve owned for the last ten plus years and is much slower, its brilliant fun! I can drive it flat out a lot of the time and it brings me back to days as a teenager when I used to enjoy driving. With only 160 odd horsepower, wringing its neck to the redline through the first three gears doesn’t end in me losing my licence and with lower levels of grip, pushing it hard down a backroad doesn’t require life ending speeds to test the levels of traction. I’ve even found myself taking the long route home sometimes to drive it a bit more. This all brings me back to my original question: whilst the modern path of adding more and more weight, power and grip has clearly made cars quicker and much more capable has it actually made driving better or just made it less fun and more frustrating by not allowing you to properly push the modern car to its limits on the road? With modern German sports saloons easily remapping to mid 600hp figures now, save from the giggle from the mid range overtaking thrust, with most people not taking cars of that value on track who is actually driving these things to near their potential on the road?
I’ve had a progression of quicker and quicker cars from hot hatches in my late teens through Impreza turbos, to my current z4mc that I’ve had for just over 5 years. From a 5.0 TVR chimera in my late 20’s through to today (42) everything I’ve owned has been RWD and around the 300-350hp mark. I appreciate this isn’t huge power by modern standards, but I just don’t feel you can really use it on the road anyway. As well as my z4m I have an e90 335d as a daily driver and a Caterham style track car which is just under 400bhp per ton. My z4mc on the right road is fantastic, the straight six is electric at higher revs and the handling whilst a bit unsettled is sharp and accurate. Here’s the problem though, the times I actually get to find the right road and it be quiet enough to really stretch its legs are few and far between. When pushing on its then easy to see the wrong side of three digit numbers quite quickly which could easily result in a licence ending conviction. Additionally, many of the times when I do take the z4m anywhere I end up stuck in traffic and with the sharp throttle mapping, heavy clutch and hard suspension I wish I hadn’t bothered and just taken my auto diesel. For a long time I just thought I was getting old and should leave any driving enjoyment I had planned for the track days I do in my kit car and reside myself to a comfy larger diesel car as my only other car.
Last year I bought an R53 Mini Cooper S as an additional runabout for my wife who was racking up too many miles on her lease car, and its been a revelation. Whilst dynamically its handles worse than most cars I’ve owned for the last ten plus years and is much slower, its brilliant fun! I can drive it flat out a lot of the time and it brings me back to days as a teenager when I used to enjoy driving. With only 160 odd horsepower, wringing its neck to the redline through the first three gears doesn’t end in me losing my licence and with lower levels of grip, pushing it hard down a backroad doesn’t require life ending speeds to test the levels of traction. I’ve even found myself taking the long route home sometimes to drive it a bit more. This all brings me back to my original question: whilst the modern path of adding more and more weight, power and grip has clearly made cars quicker and much more capable has it actually made driving better or just made it less fun and more frustrating by not allowing you to properly push the modern car to its limits on the road? With modern German sports saloons easily remapping to mid 600hp figures now, save from the giggle from the mid range overtaking thrust, with most people not taking cars of that value on track who is actually driving these things to near their potential on the road?
That's an interesting question!
I've taken much longer than you to get to a Z4M (I'm the wrong side of 60 now).
But I grew up on RWD with a Rover P6B 3500S, MK2 Escort RS2000, 2 Capri 2.8 Injections, a Scorpio 2.8i and a BMW E46 325ti Compact in my back catalogue.
After over 5 years of 3.0Si Coupe ownership I treated myself to an M Coupe last December and I love it, but as you say even revving it out in 3rd would be heading for a ban!
Admittedly I'm still in the honeymoon period with it but I really can't see when more would be better on public roads, and being "old school" I much prefer N/A engines with manual gearboxes and RWD which does limit future options.
My daily is an E90 330i, and until lockdown happened it would probably do most journeys just as quick with the bonus of added refinement and better economy.
But on those few occasions you get to let rip the MC is just so much more special.
I've taken much longer than you to get to a Z4M (I'm the wrong side of 60 now).
But I grew up on RWD with a Rover P6B 3500S, MK2 Escort RS2000, 2 Capri 2.8 Injections, a Scorpio 2.8i and a BMW E46 325ti Compact in my back catalogue.
After over 5 years of 3.0Si Coupe ownership I treated myself to an M Coupe last December and I love it, but as you say even revving it out in 3rd would be heading for a ban!
Admittedly I'm still in the honeymoon period with it but I really can't see when more would be better on public roads, and being "old school" I much prefer N/A engines with manual gearboxes and RWD which does limit future options.
My daily is an E90 330i, and until lockdown happened it would probably do most journeys just as quick with the bonus of added refinement and better economy.
But on those few occasions you get to let rip the MC is just so much more special.
You’re spot on. My M4 Comp Convertible
has 450+hp which I think I’ve only used all of a handful of occasions on the road over the 2 years I’ve owned it. Luckily there are many other things I like about the car other than It’s outright power.
To go alongside it, I bought a Lotus Elise Cup, 220hp, 930kgs. Ringing that out on the roads is great fun. It’s also narrow bodied so it fits down a country lane!
Both cars suit different moods. Both great in their own right. Good to have both. But if I had to have one...the M4 would get the nod...for the 4 seats...
has 450+hp which I think I’ve only used all of a handful of occasions on the road over the 2 years I’ve owned it. Luckily there are many other things I like about the car other than It’s outright power.
To go alongside it, I bought a Lotus Elise Cup, 220hp, 930kgs. Ringing that out on the roads is great fun. It’s also narrow bodied so it fits down a country lane!
Both cars suit different moods. Both great in their own right. Good to have both. But if I had to have one...the M4 would get the nod...for the 4 seats...
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not downing the Z4mc for a second. It’s flawed as far as overall Driving dynamics go, but it got under my skin like no car before and I love it. that’s the reason I’ve owned it for more than twice the time of any car before.
The mini was just a surprising revelation, at how much fun it can be to actually push a car further towards its limits on the road. The supercharger on the little 1.6 engine also makes an intoxicating whine when being rung out.
I haven’t taken the z4 back off sorn this summer yet with lockdown, maybe once I do and manage a couple of decent drives without horrific traffic I’ll be keeping it again. That’s been the result of the last few times I’ve been ready to sell!
I’d considered selling both it and my 335d to get into maybe an M3, c63 merc or even an f10 m5 as my daily driver, but the more and more I think about how little I’d get to use that kind of performance and the obvious comfort downsides my head says a newer, comfier and much cheaper to run F10 535d might ultimately be a much better all rounder. It would tick every box other than the fun and engaging ones.
You’ve now also got me wondering if selling the z4 and my kit car for an Elise or vx220 might be another alternative to get me into a newer 535d and give a second car that could be used on the track and for quick blasts on the road. My little Raw Striker kit car is brilliant on the track and properly quick up to a ton before aerodynamics take over, but with no windscreen or weather protection I’m not as likely to dig out my helmet on a nice day and take it to work
The mini was just a surprising revelation, at how much fun it can be to actually push a car further towards its limits on the road. The supercharger on the little 1.6 engine also makes an intoxicating whine when being rung out.
I haven’t taken the z4 back off sorn this summer yet with lockdown, maybe once I do and manage a couple of decent drives without horrific traffic I’ll be keeping it again. That’s been the result of the last few times I’ve been ready to sell!
I’d considered selling both it and my 335d to get into maybe an M3, c63 merc or even an f10 m5 as my daily driver, but the more and more I think about how little I’d get to use that kind of performance and the obvious comfort downsides my head says a newer, comfier and much cheaper to run F10 535d might ultimately be a much better all rounder. It would tick every box other than the fun and engaging ones.
You’ve now also got me wondering if selling the z4 and my kit car for an Elise or vx220 might be another alternative to get me into a newer 535d and give a second car that could be used on the track and for quick blasts on the road. My little Raw Striker kit car is brilliant on the track and properly quick up to a ton before aerodynamics take over, but with no windscreen or weather protection I’m not as likely to dig out my helmet on a nice day and take it to work
Edited by gav2612 on Monday 18th May 02:28
Been lots of threads specifically about this over on the SC forum for a few years now. This is an interesting read:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
General consensus was older, less powerful cars are more fun to drive as you get to use 75% of the whole range of the car's ability/gears without facing a ban, rather than 25% as in today's SCs. If I'm coming out of 2nd in 3rd at full throttle I'm already looking in my mirror. We live in the wrong country to enjoy high-powered vehicles. Definitely less sociably acceptable here in the UK (due to road condition and type I think) to be hooning around plus the roads are set-up to be cash-generators.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
General consensus was older, less powerful cars are more fun to drive as you get to use 75% of the whole range of the car's ability/gears without facing a ban, rather than 25% as in today's SCs. If I'm coming out of 2nd in 3rd at full throttle I'm already looking in my mirror. We live in the wrong country to enjoy high-powered vehicles. Definitely less sociably acceptable here in the UK (due to road condition and type I think) to be hooning around plus the roads are set-up to be cash-generators.
I think you have a point; I can’t really use the power of my M140i because three figures arrives far too quickly and easily. That doesn’t stop me wanting an M2, but it’s more because they look better and sound better, both of which can be enjoyed without kissing goodbye to your license!
I had an R53 Cooper S and it was hilarious; not that quick, but the noise, heavy steering etc made it so much fun to beat about in, especially on a good B road.
I had an R53 Cooper S and it was hilarious; not that quick, but the noise, heavy steering etc made it so much fun to beat about in, especially on a good B road.
I always used to chase bhp/the fastest car I could afford. Don't get me wrong I still love fast cars but I did similar and I got a F56 Cooper S back in 2017. The Mini is just so much fun to thread along a nice back road. Plus you don't worry as much about handing your licence in. I've enjoyed it that much that I'd certainly consider having another one.
I also have a 370Z GT Roadster which on paper is quicker (330bhp vs 189bhp), but in truth the Mini actually feels quicker because it is much lighter, and the turbo engine makes it feel quicker than it is sometimes.
I also have a 370Z GT Roadster which on paper is quicker (330bhp vs 189bhp), but in truth the Mini actually feels quicker because it is much lighter, and the turbo engine makes it feel quicker than it is sometimes.
SELON said:
You’re spot on. My M4 Comp Convertible
has 450+hp which I think I’ve only used all of a handful of occasions on the road over the 2 years I’ve owned it. Luckily there are many other things I like about the car other than It’s outright power.
To go alongside it, I bought a Lotus Elise Cup, 220hp, 930kgs. Ringing that out on the roads is great fun. It’s also narrow bodied so it fits down a country lane!
Both cars suit different moods. Both great in their own right. Good to have both. But if I had to have one...the M4 would get the nod...for the 4 seats...
To me the difference with the Lotus is that it isn’t all about the speed, it’s the purity of response, ride / steering etc, which you really don’t get in powerful German Cars that are blunt instruments by comparison.has 450+hp which I think I’ve only used all of a handful of occasions on the road over the 2 years I’ve owned it. Luckily there are many other things I like about the car other than It’s outright power.
To go alongside it, I bought a Lotus Elise Cup, 220hp, 930kgs. Ringing that out on the roads is great fun. It’s also narrow bodied so it fits down a country lane!
Both cars suit different moods. Both great in their own right. Good to have both. But if I had to have one...the M4 would get the nod...for the 4 seats...
Hmmm...well I'm not sure its the power per se....isn't it more about the dynamics of the car? For example:
My E92 M3...just a fabulous car to drive, it had a great balance and you could throw it around.
My M4 more power but less fun...not because of the power but the chassis/electronics lost whatever it was that made the E9x M3 such fun to drive.
My F90 M5 well the perfect example of a car with way more power than is appropriate for our roads...yet even with the extra weight its just a hoot to drive. It reminds me of my E92 M3 - sure you do have to be wary of how quick you can pick up speed but I can't stop driving it at any opportunity.
My E92 M3...just a fabulous car to drive, it had a great balance and you could throw it around.
My M4 more power but less fun...not because of the power but the chassis/electronics lost whatever it was that made the E9x M3 such fun to drive.
My F90 M5 well the perfect example of a car with way more power than is appropriate for our roads...yet even with the extra weight its just a hoot to drive. It reminds me of my E92 M3 - sure you do have to be wary of how quick you can pick up speed but I can't stop driving it at any opportunity.
My cars not particularly fast but when investment matured though wouldn't get much fun from just sticking it back in bank. Mini fan inyouth so decided to try one, put a smile on my face so went for a well specced 2011 R56 Cooper S..
Like fact that it picks up quickly from almost anywhere in rev band and that its comparatively small( compared to a 3 series). Always feels as if your're getting the most out of the car with its nippiness. Not impressed by ride so changed shocks for Koni FSD's and eventually fitter Michelin PS4's which made ride far more acceptable.
Decided at some stage I would have to change for an auto(dodgy left ankle) and started looking for a replacement Mini- found a ex demo 2018 DCT in Lapis blue with cream lounge leather- almost like a mini Merc inside. Doesn't have the same gokart feel as the R56 but great cabin to be in, can do anything that most other cars can(except carry more than 2 people and ok more grown up than r56 but still has the fun factor. Ride more compliant but got 4 ps4's wating to be fitted at Costco on black cosmos alloys( to replace runflat Pirelli P7's on propeller wheels)..
Cant see me replacing it for a long time
Like fact that it picks up quickly from almost anywhere in rev band and that its comparatively small( compared to a 3 series). Always feels as if your're getting the most out of the car with its nippiness. Not impressed by ride so changed shocks for Koni FSD's and eventually fitter Michelin PS4's which made ride far more acceptable.
Decided at some stage I would have to change for an auto(dodgy left ankle) and started looking for a replacement Mini- found a ex demo 2018 DCT in Lapis blue with cream lounge leather- almost like a mini Merc inside. Doesn't have the same gokart feel as the R56 but great cabin to be in, can do anything that most other cars can(except carry more than 2 people and ok more grown up than r56 but still has the fun factor. Ride more compliant but got 4 ps4's wating to be fitted at Costco on black cosmos alloys( to replace runflat Pirelli P7's on propeller wheels)..
Cant see me replacing it for a long time
I think there's a lot of us in our 40s who have gone full circle through a lot of cars, and then have to decide whether to start repeating our old choices, or distill our actual preferences down to the things we enjoy the most. That's the benefit of experience, rather than 'getting old' as such.
For me, that means lighter-weight and better steering for my weekend toy. I've jumped off the high-BHP bandwagon as the opportunity to experience it becomes more fleeting, and the thrill of it soon wears off.
I'd rather use a high percentage of 200bhp a lot of the time, than a low percentage of 400bhp most of the time.
For me, that means lighter-weight and better steering for my weekend toy. I've jumped off the high-BHP bandwagon as the opportunity to experience it becomes more fleeting, and the thrill of it soon wears off.
I'd rather use a high percentage of 200bhp a lot of the time, than a low percentage of 400bhp most of the time.
KPB1973 said:
I think there's a lot of us in our 40s who have gone full circle through a lot of cars, and then have to decide whether to start repeating our old choices, or distill our actual preferences down to the things we enjoy the most. That's the benefit of experience, rather than 'getting old' as such.
For me, that means lighter-weight and better steering for my weekend toy. I've jumped off the high-BHP bandwagon as the opportunity to experience it becomes more fleeting, and the thrill of it soon wears off.
I'd rather use a high percentage of 200bhp a lot of the time, than a low percentage of 400bhp most of the time.
That makes a lot of sense on the road indeed and I would share your choice if I enjoyed road driving but at least in normal times it has become impossible in SE England. Hence my fun being on track now and having gone the other way towards a bit more power, even at the detriment of lightweight. Sadly I can't justify a track focused car. For me, that means lighter-weight and better steering for my weekend toy. I've jumped off the high-BHP bandwagon as the opportunity to experience it becomes more fleeting, and the thrill of it soon wears off.
I'd rather use a high percentage of 200bhp a lot of the time, than a low percentage of 400bhp most of the time.
I'm 60 next week and had the pleasure of owning many many Ferrari,Porsche,Aston's etc but still have a small collection of older BMW M's which are still my favourites,my daily is a M235IA which I choose over the M2 because i found the M2 literally too quick for daily driving... maybe i am getting to be an old git....
CRA1G said:
CDP said:
I agree and suggest you look out for an Austin A35 van.
Well if ione was good enough for James Hunt it'll be good enough for me....
Most corners are limited by visibility rather than grip.
People wonder why sailing is fun when it's so slow. But the fun is getting the most out of the equipment and conditions in hand.
A trackday in an MGB-GT 1800 with 76 bhp at the wheels and (effectively) no brakes can still be a hoot.
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