Criticising Saint Bob
Discussion
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I do think Bob has got it quite wrong and unless the governments of the African countries involved suddenly turn into responsible and non corrupt organisations, Live 8 and it's ilk will not make one iota of difference. It is a distinct possibility it could make it worse. Perhaps if he brought pressure to bear on the governments to stop selling weapons to these countries it may be a start.
[quote=Patience Wheatcroft in The Times]
BEFORE long it will probably be a breach of the Racial and Religious Hatred legislation to say a word against Bob Geldof. Privately, however, many business people are fuming about his latest wheeze. St Bob is encouraging people to absent themselves from the workplace and join the throng he wants to descend on Edinburgh on July 6. Business will be disrupted and huge security bills incurred and none of it will benefit the starving in Africa.
Mr Geldof has called for a million people to join the march. On Thursday the Bishop of Argyll went further. “Let’s have two million, that’s my first thought,” he said. If the Scottish Episcopal Church leader ever gets round to considering the matter more seriously, he might realise the silliness of the exercise.
*
Live Aid was all about raising money in an effort to help the starving. Live 8 is about Britain spending money in a way which will not make any difference to the hungry millions in Africa. It will almost certainly make Mr Geldof and his chums feel better but the benefits will not be experienced in Africa.
The proclaimed purpose of the exercise is to make the leaders of the G8 wake up to the needs of the starving continent. Yet, however low the esteem in which the marchers might hold the politicians who will be assembling in Edinburgh, of one thing they may be sure. They are well aware of the plight that afflicts much of Africa. What they are not so clear about is exactly how to help put it right. Mr Geldof and his colleagues do not appear to know the answer to that either.
Debt relief alone is certainly not the cure, although the West had been moving in this direction long before the Live 8 clamouring began. It seems likely that the G8 finance ministers meeting in London this weekend will come to an agreement to wipe out $55 billion (£30 billion) of long-standing debts for 38 countries. But simply forgiving debt is not going to improve the lot of those struggling to survive in Africa. Responsible government, constructive encouragement and aid are essential.
As Paul Wolfowitz, the new head of the World Bank, pointed out yesterday: “Giving money to corrupt governments is a formula for ineffective assistance.” Wiping out debt is tantamount to giving money and it has to be done with very tight strings attached. It would also impoverish the World Bank, which should play a pivotal role in helping Africa to help herself. So an essential part of the plan to write off debts will also have to be an agreement to provide additional funding for the World Bank. It seems that the United States has been persuaded to hand over extra cash.
Money, carefully spent, is undoubtedly part of the solution to Africa’s problems. It can provide food and education but, for the long term, it can also fund the micro-banks that, with relatively tiny loans, can help individuals to set up businesses. The money Live Aid raised may not all have reached its planned destination but some did. The lunacy of Live 8 is that, apart from the costs that the marchers will bring, one of the biggest concerts for many a year will not be raising money for a good cause.
Most of the 148,000 people who will attend will enjoy a starry line-up for the cost of a phone call and a hefty subsidy from taxpayers when they would have happily paid a significant sum. That the Chancellor allowed himself to be persuaded to waive the VAT on the event is a tribute to Mr Geldof’s effective blackmailing, but not to common sense.
To claim that a free concert for relatively wealthy Britons is about raising awareness of the need to fight poverty in Africa is madness. What would they make of it in Sudan?[/quote]
Ace-T :)
[quote=Patience Wheatcroft in The Times]
BEFORE long it will probably be a breach of the Racial and Religious Hatred legislation to say a word against Bob Geldof. Privately, however, many business people are fuming about his latest wheeze. St Bob is encouraging people to absent themselves from the workplace and join the throng he wants to descend on Edinburgh on July 6. Business will be disrupted and huge security bills incurred and none of it will benefit the starving in Africa.
Mr Geldof has called for a million people to join the march. On Thursday the Bishop of Argyll went further. “Let’s have two million, that’s my first thought,” he said. If the Scottish Episcopal Church leader ever gets round to considering the matter more seriously, he might realise the silliness of the exercise.
*
Live Aid was all about raising money in an effort to help the starving. Live 8 is about Britain spending money in a way which will not make any difference to the hungry millions in Africa. It will almost certainly make Mr Geldof and his chums feel better but the benefits will not be experienced in Africa.
The proclaimed purpose of the exercise is to make the leaders of the G8 wake up to the needs of the starving continent. Yet, however low the esteem in which the marchers might hold the politicians who will be assembling in Edinburgh, of one thing they may be sure. They are well aware of the plight that afflicts much of Africa. What they are not so clear about is exactly how to help put it right. Mr Geldof and his colleagues do not appear to know the answer to that either.
Debt relief alone is certainly not the cure, although the West had been moving in this direction long before the Live 8 clamouring began. It seems likely that the G8 finance ministers meeting in London this weekend will come to an agreement to wipe out $55 billion (£30 billion) of long-standing debts for 38 countries. But simply forgiving debt is not going to improve the lot of those struggling to survive in Africa. Responsible government, constructive encouragement and aid are essential.
As Paul Wolfowitz, the new head of the World Bank, pointed out yesterday: “Giving money to corrupt governments is a formula for ineffective assistance.” Wiping out debt is tantamount to giving money and it has to be done with very tight strings attached. It would also impoverish the World Bank, which should play a pivotal role in helping Africa to help herself. So an essential part of the plan to write off debts will also have to be an agreement to provide additional funding for the World Bank. It seems that the United States has been persuaded to hand over extra cash.
Money, carefully spent, is undoubtedly part of the solution to Africa’s problems. It can provide food and education but, for the long term, it can also fund the micro-banks that, with relatively tiny loans, can help individuals to set up businesses. The money Live Aid raised may not all have reached its planned destination but some did. The lunacy of Live 8 is that, apart from the costs that the marchers will bring, one of the biggest concerts for many a year will not be raising money for a good cause.
Most of the 148,000 people who will attend will enjoy a starry line-up for the cost of a phone call and a hefty subsidy from taxpayers when they would have happily paid a significant sum. That the Chancellor allowed himself to be persuaded to waive the VAT on the event is a tribute to Mr Geldof’s effective blackmailing, but not to common sense.
To claim that a free concert for relatively wealthy Britons is about raising awareness of the need to fight poverty in Africa is madness. What would they make of it in Sudan?[/quote]
Ace-T :)
Couldn't agree more. While Bob Geldof is unquestionably a good man, motivated by good intentions, his reasoning falls short of the mark. If you read P J O'Rourke's All The Trouble In The World, he makes a very good case for the argument that famines are caused by political, not natural factors, and I would say that goes for most of Africa's problems. Until the political situation is improved one way or another, the continent's problems are not going to improve greatly.
I'm waiting for someone to cancel my debt, after all it's only a few grand, not umpteen billions...
As for Geldof, Ure, Bono and their ilk. I have 2 repsonses when they start banging on about how we should share our wealth with the "third world"
First response...shut up and get your own chequbook out.
Second response...the off button.
Imagine if Live Aid etc had been for Cancer Research...how much of a difference would that have made?
>> Edited by monkeyhanger on Monday 13th June 14:37
As for Geldof, Ure, Bono and their ilk. I have 2 repsonses when they start banging on about how we should share our wealth with the "third world"
First response...shut up and get your own chequbook out.
Second response...the off button.
Imagine if Live Aid etc had been for Cancer Research...how much of a difference would that have made?
>> Edited by monkeyhanger on Monday 13th June 14:37
billb said:
so much easier to be cynical isn't it...
...better than being naive and thinking chucking cash and celebrity endorsements will stop the corruption and butchery...
Oh and don't get me started on the birth control issues and the biggest growing religion in Africa...
Ace-T
>> Edited by Ace-T on Monday 13th June 14:45
First World Guilt.
This seems to be yet another cycle of the rich first world dipping into their pockets to bail out the third world. It does not mean that we should not try and help, surely one life saved is a plus?
What needs to happen though..
Hardline approach to corrupt Govs.
Cease Arms sales in Africa
Reduce tariffs on African goods
suspend debt repayments while arms spending is nil.
Aid the security of democratically elected governments that cease arms spending.
Catholic church support use of condoms.
>> Edited by rich1231 on Monday 13th June 14:54
This seems to be yet another cycle of the rich first world dipping into their pockets to bail out the third world. It does not mean that we should not try and help, surely one life saved is a plus?
What needs to happen though..
Hardline approach to corrupt Govs.
Cease Arms sales in Africa
Reduce tariffs on African goods
suspend debt repayments while arms spending is nil.
Aid the security of democratically elected governments that cease arms spending.
Catholic church support use of condoms.
>> Edited by rich1231 on Monday 13th June 14:54
We keep throwing money at the problem and it isn't going away.
Bono especially p!sses me off as he cozies up to the same Pope who won't sanction the use of condoms as a method of birth and disease control, even within marriage
Cancelling the debt won't help unless you cancel the corrupt politicians/police/border security people as well - and the same people who are campaigning for debt cancellation are the same ones who would start banging the 'colonial imperialism' drum if we went in and did the job properly
Half the problem is that during famine parents have 15 kids in order to get two or three to survive; once the famine gets sorted out no-one explains to the masses that they don't need to have 15 kids to get two or three survivors, they need two or three kids, and then there'll be food enough. If everyone has 15 kids and they all survive there soon won't be enough food again and the vicious circle is complete.
Donate if you want to; go if you want to, it's all the same to me. My charity money is going to the Lifeboats and the National Trust.
Bono especially p!sses me off as he cozies up to the same Pope who won't sanction the use of condoms as a method of birth and disease control, even within marriage
Cancelling the debt won't help unless you cancel the corrupt politicians/police/border security people as well - and the same people who are campaigning for debt cancellation are the same ones who would start banging the 'colonial imperialism' drum if we went in and did the job properly
Half the problem is that during famine parents have 15 kids in order to get two or three to survive; once the famine gets sorted out no-one explains to the masses that they don't need to have 15 kids to get two or three survivors, they need two or three kids, and then there'll be food enough. If everyone has 15 kids and they all survive there soon won't be enough food again and the vicious circle is complete.
Donate if you want to; go if you want to, it's all the same to me. My charity money is going to the Lifeboats and the National Trust.
JagLover said:
so much easier to be cynical isnt it...
Is it cynicism, or is it a disagreement among people who care about the issue what is the right way forward.
nothing wrong with disagreement and i agree with most points u lot are making but i think something is better than nothing and at least he is trying. the fact we're talking about it kindof says he's achieved his aim?
It doesn't sound like anyone who has commented so far has actually read or listened to BG and the intentions behind Live8, including the person who wrote the original article.
I sent my English nurse friend some money last week, she's been volunteering in Africa for a few weeks. She sent me a mail this morning which said "I have raised
just over 1,600 pounds which is absolutely fantastic. You have all been incredibly generous. There is so much in terms of health care that we have been able to provide for the children over the past few weeks – it is brilliant. One child is actually being admitted to hospital today for a long awaited operation. He had polio when he was tiny and so has trouble walking, but hopefully things will be a lot better for him soon. We also managed to get 17 kids tested for HIV last week – amazingly enough they were all negative. A huge thank you for donating money which has allowed us to do these things.
Not sure why anyone would take a stand against Live8 when 50,000 children die in poverty every day.
I sent my English nurse friend some money last week, she's been volunteering in Africa for a few weeks. She sent me a mail this morning which said "I have raised
just over 1,600 pounds which is absolutely fantastic. You have all been incredibly generous. There is so much in terms of health care that we have been able to provide for the children over the past few weeks – it is brilliant. One child is actually being admitted to hospital today for a long awaited operation. He had polio when he was tiny and so has trouble walking, but hopefully things will be a lot better for him soon. We also managed to get 17 kids tested for HIV last week – amazingly enough they were all negative. A huge thank you for donating money which has allowed us to do these things.
Not sure why anyone would take a stand against Live8 when 50,000 children die in poverty every day.
But isn't Live8 supposed to be that? A frivolous but overwhelming show of support in response to a massive worldwide issue which should validate and hopefully accelerate the ongoing process within the G8 to fix the problem?
There is no reason why the situation isn't fixed already. The momentum from the likes of you and I will insist that the issue is at the top of the agenda. And if it doesn't we must believe it will because without faith, nothing is ever achieved.
Which is why knocking BG without doing anything else to help is counter-productive.
Without Live8 and the trendy wrist bands it would still be out of our consciousness, this is a movement written in a language that most can understand. There will always be those who will take a faux intellectual highground and criticise because of one thing and another...Bono this, corruption that, free publicity, won't have an impact...blah blah...... easy to do from the comfort of an armchair.
But what would you do to demonstrate a nations feeling towards world poverty in a peaceful and meaningful way to the 8 most powerful leaders in the world?
If you can think of anything better I'm sure BG would be the first to subscribe!
There is no reason why the situation isn't fixed already. The momentum from the likes of you and I will insist that the issue is at the top of the agenda. And if it doesn't we must believe it will because without faith, nothing is ever achieved.
Which is why knocking BG without doing anything else to help is counter-productive.
Without Live8 and the trendy wrist bands it would still be out of our consciousness, this is a movement written in a language that most can understand. There will always be those who will take a faux intellectual highground and criticise because of one thing and another...Bono this, corruption that, free publicity, won't have an impact...blah blah...... easy to do from the comfort of an armchair.
But what would you do to demonstrate a nations feeling towards world poverty in a peaceful and meaningful way to the 8 most powerful leaders in the world?
If you can think of anything better I'm sure BG would be the first to subscribe!
The whole point of this is to put pressure on the 8 leaders to cancel African debt.
Let's cancel the debt and then see whether African countries can support themselves.
50,000 avoidable deaths a day would be stamped on if it was happening in the western world.
How the G8 leaders are going to cancel the debts when I assume that at least some of the debt is owed to banks like HSBC et al is beyond me, but it will be interesting to see how our glorious leader (Blair Witch Doctor) is going to spin his way out of this one.
Let's cancel the debt and then see whether African countries can support themselves.
50,000 avoidable deaths a day would be stamped on if it was happening in the western world.
How the G8 leaders are going to cancel the debts when I assume that at least some of the debt is owed to banks like HSBC et al is beyond me, but it will be interesting to see how our glorious leader (Blair Witch Doctor) is going to spin his way out of this one.
billb said:
nothing wrong with disagreement and i agree with most points u lot are making but i think something is better than nothing and at least he is trying. the fact we're talking about it kindof says he's achieved his aim?
That's kinda like saying 'we need to stop deaths on the road, how's about we use cameras? It won't work but it'll raise loadsa money which won't get fed back into the system. It'll piss everyone off too but at least they'll all be talking about it
Personally, I don't think Live8 is a good idea.
I think handing out cash is NOT the way to do it, espcially when the money will doubtless end up in the hands of bandits anyway.
I personally, make an effort to buy FairTrade goods. I think that as the FairTrade system is monitored and scrutinised well the money does go to the farmers.
I'd rather do this to at least TRY to support future generations in Africa than what I see as handouts merely overcoming the problems for a very short time.
Just my view of it but obviously, unless we've seen it first hand its very difficult to know exactly what's going on.
(I do object to multi millionaire 'pop' stars telling us to hand over money. )
I think handing out cash is NOT the way to do it, espcially when the money will doubtless end up in the hands of bandits anyway.
I personally, make an effort to buy FairTrade goods. I think that as the FairTrade system is monitored and scrutinised well the money does go to the farmers.
I'd rather do this to at least TRY to support future generations in Africa than what I see as handouts merely overcoming the problems for a very short time.
Just my view of it but obviously, unless we've seen it first hand its very difficult to know exactly what's going on.
(I do object to multi millionaire 'pop' stars telling us to hand over money. )
:tonker said:
But they have [say] 60,000 completely avoidable and totally unnecessary births every day as well........... - if you stop the death rates, that's a new UK population to feed every three years
Yep, quite agree....which is why Saint Bob's policy needs to have a flip side ......
There should be a joint slogan for both sides of the coin "Stop F@cking - Africa"
rich1231 said:
What needs to happen though..
Hardline approach to corrupt Govs.
Cease Arms sales in Africa
Reduce tariffs on African goods
suspend debt repayments while arms spending is nil.
Aid the security of democratically elected governments that cease arms spending.
Catholic church support use of condoms.
What he said, absolutely spot on.
Not to mention the UN going in with some real teeth and proper military backing and removing the corrupt
ers and their ilk properly.Balmoral Green said:
Not to mention the UN going in with some real teeth and proper military backing and removing the corrupt
I agree totally about removing the "ilk"; however, the UN couldn't liberate a rest home, much less a bunch of over-armed thugs who spent the last bundle of aid cash on spinning rims!
>> Edited by jimbeaux on Monday 13th June 16:10
Balmoral Green said:
What needs to happen though..
Hardline approach to corrupt Govs.
Cease Arms sales in Africa
Reduce tariffs on African goods
suspend debt repayments while arms spending is nil.
Aid the security of democratically elected governments that cease arms spending.
Catholic church support use of condoms.
What he said, absolutely spot on.
Not to mention the UN going in with some real teeth and proper military backing and removing the corrupt
Yes I agree, there a couple of people I know who have lived and worked in Africa, and the real problem is the fighting between groups seeking power, the corruption is staggering within some of the goverments, and the people are the ones who pay. There needs to be a wholesale disarming of some of these people, goverments included, but it will never happen. BG is misguided thinking money will solve the problem, when you have leaders who will starve their own people, shoot and murder their own people all to stay in power,does he really think a bunch of singers will make them think any differently.
tuscan_thunder said:
I do object to multi millionaire 'pop' stars telling us to hand over money.
Yes I do too. Even though, undoubtedly they give a lot to charity they still live in splendour compared to us.
Before a person goes on a preaching crusade I think they need to evaluate their own wealth.
Now, I dont know where any of them live but I bet it's in multi-million pound houses, is that really necessary?
A hypothetical question, if I may. If by giving up all of their wealth and going to live in a terraced house with a 9 to 5 job they could save one life and this life prospered in Africa, would they do it, would they f
k, which if you look at it, makes them not much better than the people that run the African governments....it's all greed. I think any rich person that preaches about this kind of thing needs to ask themselves this one question, and if the answer is no they have no right to say anything.
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff