Bring back a bespoke rally class?
Discussion
I love watching the WRC, but I still think it lacks a certain, well, sense of development. I know how amazing the cars are but I can't help thinking how much better they would be if they were more focused like the Group 4, Group B and aborted Group S cars, they'd be even more capable. There's something even more exclusive and spectacular about watching bespoke F1 and Le Mans cars racing. Wouldn't it be great if rallying had something similar.
Now, the problem with Group B were that there were virtually no rules as to what the limits were, and manufacturers could build anything so long as there were 200 of them, and the fans were insane and not properly regulated.
What do PHers think about introducing a new 'bespoke' category, with proper horsepower/engine regulations and genuine crowd-control?
I for one would love to see it. Imagine 'modernised' Group B cars - S3 Quattro Turbos, mid-engined Ford Pumas and the like.
Now, the problem with Group B were that there were virtually no rules as to what the limits were, and manufacturers could build anything so long as there were 200 of them, and the fans were insane and not properly regulated.
What do PHers think about introducing a new 'bespoke' category, with proper horsepower/engine regulations and genuine crowd-control?
I for one would love to see it. Imagine 'modernised' Group B cars - S3 Quattro Turbos, mid-engined Ford Pumas and the like.
A good idea, but it'll never happen...
I think the basic WRC structure would be considerably better if they changed a few things, like:
- More power. 400PS would be fine.
- GT-style restrictors. At the moment everyone has to use a 2 litre 4-pot turbo engine with a set restrictor size. In GT racing you have various engine sizes and types all regulated by different restrictors. Lots of noises and types of car. There was a video of Marc Duez in the Belgian rallying 911 on here a while ago and the sound was amazing. If Alfa wants to build a WRC 147 with a V6 engine or VW wants to do a WRC V6 Golf, let them - though neither of them would, of course.
- Basic transmissions. Get rid of the complex electronic diffs and get back to basic LSDs. Only Subaru and Mitsubishi still make 4WD road cars, as a hangover from Group A, so no one can really claim a link to road car development. Heck, maybe even spec transmissions could work.
- Get rid of crap events like Cyprus and Turkey.
- Bring back longer events.
Rallying has become so dull these days and only the 1000 Lakes and Sweden still really grab my attention. Look at the way the Col de Turini stage has withered on the Monte and look at how the RAC Rally has fallen from being the biggest single sporting event in Britain, with 2 million spectators over five days, to the pathetic imitation it is now, tucked away in some god-awful corner of South Wales. The cars look great but are underpowered and over-chassised - like 4WD F3 cars.
Agent 006 (from these very boards) put a video of Stig Blomqvist on www.quattroforum.com a few weeks ago. It was taken while Stig was hustling passengers up and down the Col de Turini in January, to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of quattro. An S1, with straight pipes, making the most incredible noise, bucking and slithering around as Stig hurled it up the hill, was a fabulous sight. And he was changing gear by hand and using the clutch, too... A WRC car, by comparison, is just plain boring.
I think the basic WRC structure would be considerably better if they changed a few things, like:
- More power. 400PS would be fine.
- GT-style restrictors. At the moment everyone has to use a 2 litre 4-pot turbo engine with a set restrictor size. In GT racing you have various engine sizes and types all regulated by different restrictors. Lots of noises and types of car. There was a video of Marc Duez in the Belgian rallying 911 on here a while ago and the sound was amazing. If Alfa wants to build a WRC 147 with a V6 engine or VW wants to do a WRC V6 Golf, let them - though neither of them would, of course.
- Basic transmissions. Get rid of the complex electronic diffs and get back to basic LSDs. Only Subaru and Mitsubishi still make 4WD road cars, as a hangover from Group A, so no one can really claim a link to road car development. Heck, maybe even spec transmissions could work.
- Get rid of crap events like Cyprus and Turkey.
- Bring back longer events.
Rallying has become so dull these days and only the 1000 Lakes and Sweden still really grab my attention. Look at the way the Col de Turini stage has withered on the Monte and look at how the RAC Rally has fallen from being the biggest single sporting event in Britain, with 2 million spectators over five days, to the pathetic imitation it is now, tucked away in some god-awful corner of South Wales. The cars look great but are underpowered and over-chassised - like 4WD F3 cars.
Agent 006 (from these very boards) put a video of Stig Blomqvist on www.quattroforum.com a few weeks ago. It was taken while Stig was hustling passengers up and down the Col de Turini in January, to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of quattro. An S1, with straight pipes, making the most incredible noise, bucking and slithering around as Stig hurled it up the hill, was a fabulous sight. And he was changing gear by hand and using the clutch, too... A WRC car, by comparison, is just plain boring.
Ahonen said:
And he was changing gear by hand and using the clutch, too...
Probably not, IIRC S1/S2 Quattro's used an an early primitive from of electro-hydraulic clutch, which meant the clutch pedal was only used for getting moving and once on the move the clutch was actuated when the gearlever was moved.
But totally agree rallying is pathetic now, with it's office hours sprint events and naff regulations.
Rallying needs to get back to it's roots, and connections with road cars, not hi-tech £300k+ specials.
The FIA is trying to make rallying into some sort of made for TV spectacle....
Hmmmm...isn't that what Rallycross is, but nobody it seems, least of all the FIA, wants to promote that.....:-(
aeropilot said:
Ahonen said:
And he was changing gear by hand and using the clutch, too...
Probably not, IIRC S1/S2 Quattro's used an an early primitive from of electro-hydraulic clutch, which meant the clutch pedal was only used for getting moving and once on the move the clutch was actuated when the gearlever was moved.
Yes, the PDK was used in '86, but the car Stig was using on Turini in Jan had a standard 'box. He also had a toned down engine with 'only' 450PS.
Pedant mode on - the S2 was based on the chunky later Coupe. The S1 (or E2) was the winged SWB one. Going back in my corner now...
>> Edited by ahonen on Wednesday 1st June 14:23
ahonen said:
Yes, the PDK was used in '86, but the car Stig was using on Turini in Jan had a standard 'box. He also had a toned down engine with 'only' 450PS.
Pedant mode on - the S2 was based on the chunky later Coupe. The S1 (or E2) was the winged SWB one. Going back in my corner now...
>> Edited by ahonen on Wednesday 1st June 14:23
Don't know why I wrote S2...??
I knew what I meant, brain/digit disfunction.....;-)
Yeah....only 450hp, nothing really.
I remember Olle and Dimi's 600+hp S1 rallycross cars.....oh the sight and sound of those blasting up Hairy Hill at Lyddon in the good old days....
OK, so what about enforcing current engine regulations, but allowing a category of cars which are completely bespoke and purpose-built.
I mean, Group B proved the effectiveness of compact, mid-engined 4WD cars in rallying. I see no reason why a new class can't allow limited-homologation cars that are totally focused on rallying.
I mean, surely 4-door saloons aren't the most efficient rallying shapes are they?
I mean, Group B proved the effectiveness of compact, mid-engined 4WD cars in rallying. I see no reason why a new class can't allow limited-homologation cars that are totally focused on rallying.
I mean, surely 4-door saloons aren't the most efficient rallying shapes are they?
Twincam16 said:
OK, so what about enforcing current engine regulations, but allowing a category of cars which are completely bespoke and purpose-built.
I mean, Group B proved the effectiveness of compact, mid-engined 4WD cars in rallying. I see no reason why a new class can't allow limited-homologation cars that are totally focused on rallying.
I mean, surely 4-door saloons aren't the most efficient rallying shapes are they?
I still don't know why people are so hung up on 4wd mid engined spaceframed Group B style rally cars...
Lets get rallying back to what it should be, not the shambles it's now become.
aeropilot said:
I still don't know why people are so hung up on 4wd mid engined spaceframed Group B style rally cars...
Lets get rallying back to what it should be, not the shambles it's now become.
I think the problem is that rallying is probably the only motorsport that has noticeably regressed, rather than evolved, due to regulations. OK, so they banned turbos and ground-effect (among other things) in F1 but the cars are still faster, lighter and sharper-handling than ever. Group C seems to have disappeared, but we have the GT1 class instead, which seems pretty similar. Again, the cars are going faster and handling better than ever.
With rallying, it split into Group 4 with the likes of the Stratos and the Renault 5 Turbo. This was an evolution. Those cars in turn evolved into Group B and were about to evolve again, into Group S. These were ultimately evolved rally cars.
And then they were banned, and it all went back to saloons with spoilers. It's essentially had its natural development strangled.
Now IMO the Toivenen/Crespo deaths were to rallying what Ratzenburger/Senna was to F1. Lots of safety regulations were rushed in, but they didn't cancel F1 altogether and make everyone drive F3 cars instead (then again, in F1 you didn't get spectators on the track, but that could be solved).
Have rules, yes, but have bespoke, rally-specific sports cars too. Right now rallying's not firing on all cylinders, and hasn't been since the days of Group A.
Twincam16 said:
With rallying, it split into Group 4 with the likes of the Stratos and the Renault 5 Turbo. This was an evolution. Those cars in turn evolved into Group B and were about to evolve again, into Group S. These were ultimately evolved rally cars.
And then they were banned, and it all went back to saloons with spoilers. It's essentially had its natural development strangled.
Now IMO the Toivenen/Crespo deaths were to rallying what Ratzenburger/Senna was to F1. Lots of safety regulations were rushed in, but they didn't cancel F1 altogether and make everyone drive F3 cars instead (then again, in F1 you didn't get spectators on the track, but that could be solved).
Have rules, yes, but have bespoke, rally-specific sports cars too. Right now rallying's not firing on all cylinders, and hasn't been since the days of Group A.
Again, the focus on the cars has killed the sport, and any regs that continue the way it is or even make rally cars more bespoke won't improve matters.
Rallying isn't about ridiculously fast cars....
Ask yourself why Group A was good, and Group2/4 before that in the real 70's heydays....
Essentially production cars with modifications, sure the Stratos and Alpine's were 'bespoke' but they had to build enough road versions to enable them to go rallying. Group A regs in the aftermath of the Group B accidents effectively returned the cars to that philosophy, but unfortunately the Group B accidents changed the event layouts and created this short sprint style office hours rallying which has been diluted even more as the years have gone on. This as much as anything has killed the sport.
Ban four wheel drive, go back to proper homogation of production based cars, and get back to proper semi-endurance non-office hours rallying that was as much about the navigation as driving fast. But also allowed for time to be made up on events. If a crew get a puncture or some other minor problem now, there is virtually no chance of making up that time with such few stages and shor events.
Afterall most manufacturers have a suitable basis for a competitive car in production already, requiring only parts to be homolgated.
The sport does needs more manufacturer interest, which is fast disappearing. Next year is looking grim with both Peugeot and Citroen pulling out, and Ford seemingly making a descision about whether to stay in, on a yearly basis, and if they pull the plug at the end of the year?
What will that leave, Subaru and maybe Mitsubishi and Skoda......wow!
I rememeber the days when there was works teams from Ford, Talbot, BL, Fiat, Lancia, Vauxhall, Opel, Saab, Porsche, Renault, Toyota, Datsun all in the same event!!
>> Edited by aeropilot on Friday 3rd June 14:12
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