Looking at house purchase - what work can I do myself?
Discussion
My wife and I have found a lovely property in the Ardeche, 19th century, big but not too big, views to die for, and not ruined. It had a brand new roof 10 years ago.
However, the electrics will need completely redoing, and there is no hot water beyond a geyser, nor a bathroom (just a sink and loo) despite there once being a family of 6 living there. (Insert stereotypical remark about the French and washing here!)
Can I read up on the specs and do a rewire and do new plumbing + hot water tank myself or is it like the UK where you need to pay a pro to make it legal?
However, the electrics will need completely redoing, and there is no hot water beyond a geyser, nor a bathroom (just a sink and loo) despite there once being a family of 6 living there. (Insert stereotypical remark about the French and washing here!)
Can I read up on the specs and do a rewire and do new plumbing + hot water tank myself or is it like the UK where you need to pay a pro to make it legal?
No need for professionalism it's a third world country where anyone can have a crack. Fingers crossed eh?!
More seriously, you'll need sign off as a minimum, because it’s an EU member state, which has safety Regulations, which must be followed. Plenty of threads on here with examples.
And it's not like here with tax when you sell. If you can sell. If you want to claim you spent some money to offset any capital gain, hard receipt showing money (Inc tax) paid, or no deduction, no debate.
More seriously, you'll need sign off as a minimum, because it’s an EU member state, which has safety Regulations, which must be followed. Plenty of threads on here with examples.
And it's not like here with tax when you sell. If you can sell. If you want to claim you spent some money to offset any capital gain, hard receipt showing money (Inc tax) paid, or no deduction, no debate.
Edited by Croutons on Saturday 27th July 08:08
Met a bloke yesterday who had spent a fortune getting his place rewired by a fellow brit, only problem was he had brought over all the UK spec cable and now has to get the whole lot redone using NF marked cable before it can be tested and approved.
Quite right about using approved trades to get the work done otherwise it won't be allowed as an offset to any capital gain so you have to work out if the cost of getting approved work/invoices is going to be more or less than the capital gains tax (but of course you won't know that until the end and you try to sell).
We've just sold and didn't have any capital gain as the invoices came to more than twice any gain that would have been made, in other words we lost a fortune on the exrcise over the 15 years that we have been here, still, we have enjoyed our time here and it's been an experience and kept us fit so a financial loss but a huge life experience gain. Very sad to leave but we are getting on and maintenenace was starting to be come a huge chore rather than an enjoyment and getting harder and harder.
Quite right about using approved trades to get the work done otherwise it won't be allowed as an offset to any capital gain so you have to work out if the cost of getting approved work/invoices is going to be more or less than the capital gains tax (but of course you won't know that until the end and you try to sell).
We've just sold and didn't have any capital gain as the invoices came to more than twice any gain that would have been made, in other words we lost a fortune on the exrcise over the 15 years that we have been here, still, we have enjoyed our time here and it's been an experience and kept us fit so a financial loss but a huge life experience gain. Very sad to leave but we are getting on and maintenenace was starting to be come a huge chore rather than an enjoyment and getting harder and harder.
Is it a holiday house or a full time home , if it's the first you'll never get another holiday as long as you own it , I speak from experience.
I've extended and new built over the years , I'd recommend getting the electrics done by a registered sparkie , he'll also do the hot water tank as I'm guessing you don't have mains gas or a tank if there's no bath !
Apart from that , crack on yourself . No building inspectors in rural France and even when you come to sell no one checks anything unless your buyer has paid for a survey , the twice I've sold there's been no inspection apart from the standard, termites , insulation value and drainage that needs to be done for a notaire to deal with the sale .
As mentioned before , if the work you do isn't backed up by a registered French trades person there's no capital gains relief , bills for materials you've used yourself aren't taken into account.
Good luck with what you decide but both houses I had were relatively new , one brand new built by me , smallish and easy - cheap to run and both sold quickly to French buyers . A friend of mine did the big house thing and when they decided to sell it took forever and cost them a fortune .
I'll just add that a re-wire on the size house your looking at will run into a 5 figure bill in the blink of an eye , anything you have done by a trade in france will cost a lot more than here , the registered trades that I know over there all worked on receiving half of what they charge due to tax .
I've extended and new built over the years , I'd recommend getting the electrics done by a registered sparkie , he'll also do the hot water tank as I'm guessing you don't have mains gas or a tank if there's no bath !
Apart from that , crack on yourself . No building inspectors in rural France and even when you come to sell no one checks anything unless your buyer has paid for a survey , the twice I've sold there's been no inspection apart from the standard, termites , insulation value and drainage that needs to be done for a notaire to deal with the sale .
As mentioned before , if the work you do isn't backed up by a registered French trades person there's no capital gains relief , bills for materials you've used yourself aren't taken into account.
Good luck with what you decide but both houses I had were relatively new , one brand new built by me , smallish and easy - cheap to run and both sold quickly to French buyers . A friend of mine did the big house thing and when they decided to sell it took forever and cost them a fortune .
I'll just add that a re-wire on the size house your looking at will run into a 5 figure bill in the blink of an eye , anything you have done by a trade in france will cost a lot more than here , the registered trades that I know over there all worked on receiving half of what they charge due to tax .
Edited by paulwirral on Saturday 27th July 12:58
WyrleyD said:
True about the cost of a French electrician, this is the last page of the "devi" for a 5 bedroom house electrical install dating from 2007:
I remember my sparkie on the new build quoting almost 10k , I ended up getting him down to 7k by throwing a bit of cash in the ring and promising to pay on completion, I ended up tidying all his work up , think sockets at different levels , rads not central under windows , just poor quality, but I wouldn't have been any different if I'd paid full on his quote . He told me he'd just looked at a job for an English couple who were buying an old property and thought they'd complete the whole renovation for 20k , his quote was 17k for the electrics alone !
If I'd took my time into account when building the house , I've said before on here , I'd be busted and depressed. I'm probably one of one on here who's been stupid enough to attempt building a house alone but ultimately it just about paid off as I made a small profit on my capital investment , I know too many people who've come unstuck down there with renovations. One guy I met is still struggling on after 15 years trying to complete his gite complex , he estimated he'd be up and running with 3 luxury gites and 4 caravan parking sites in 5 years , truth is it'll never be finished.
I wish anyone who tries it the best , but we've not even considered buying or developing another holiday home anywhere again , better off rent someone else's for a month to 3 month and let them have the hassle .
All excellent advice, thanks.
In the end we decided not to buy the place. On a second visit, and after reading through all the survey and fosse reports we could see that it would be years before we could actually just enjoy a holiday there. And installing a legal fosse would probably wreck the best bit of garden.
Not all bad news though. My in-laws have a nice place in the Lot valley where they have lived for 25 years, and which my wife will inherit. Visiting all these other places gave us a renewed appreciation for just how good theirs is. Not quite the right area but very nice nevertheless.
In the end we decided not to buy the place. On a second visit, and after reading through all the survey and fosse reports we could see that it would be years before we could actually just enjoy a holiday there. And installing a legal fosse would probably wreck the best bit of garden.
Not all bad news though. My in-laws have a nice place in the Lot valley where they have lived for 25 years, and which my wife will inherit. Visiting all these other places gave us a renewed appreciation for just how good theirs is. Not quite the right area but very nice nevertheless.
If she inherits the property then there is still Capital Gains Tax to pay on the inheritance, no escape from CGT in France and I seem to remember that the rates are reduced for spouse and children, the following tax rates are way out of date (2007) but relate to close relative Inheritance Tax:
Property Value...Tax Rate
You will find that there is a huge amount of empty properties in France due mainly to the tax on inheritance laws.
Property Value...Tax Rate
- Less than 7,600 euro...5%
- 7,600 to 11,400 euro...10%
- 11,400 to 15,000 euro...15%
- 15,000 to 520,000 euro...20%
- 520,000 to 850,000 euro...30%
- 850,000 to 1,700,000 euro...35%
- 1,700,000 and above...40%
You will find that there is a huge amount of empty properties in France due mainly to the tax on inheritance laws.
Given that the French property market is more or less static, and my in-laws paid something equivalent to €70k 25 years ago, would the state appraise the inheritance tax on that value or would it get a current market valuation?
Over the years a lot of renovation and improvement work (e.g. a pool) has happened. Is it like selling where you should produce a box full of receipts for work done to offset the capital gains tax or does inheritance work a different way?
Also, does anyone know if the Fosse Septique regulations apply on an inheritance in the same way as with a purchase? Google isn't helping me here.
Over the years a lot of renovation and improvement work (e.g. a pool) has happened. Is it like selling where you should produce a box full of receipts for work done to offset the capital gains tax or does inheritance work a different way?
Also, does anyone know if the Fosse Septique regulations apply on an inheritance in the same way as with a purchase? Google isn't helping me here.
Sebastian Tombs said:
Given that the French property market is more or less static, and my in-laws paid something equivalent to €70k 25 years ago, would the state appraise the inheritance tax on that value or would it get a current market valuation?
Over the years a lot of renovation and improvement work (e.g. a pool) has happened. Is it like selling where you should produce a box full of receipts for work done to offset the capital gains tax or does inheritance work a different way?
Also, does anyone know if the Fosse Septique regulations apply on an inheritance in the same way as with a purchase? Google isn't helping me here.
The tax is paid on the difference of the purchase price and the current sale/market value less any "approved" invoices (that is official invoices by a registered French trade).Over the years a lot of renovation and improvement work (e.g. a pool) has happened. Is it like selling where you should produce a box full of receipts for work done to offset the capital gains tax or does inheritance work a different way?
Also, does anyone know if the Fosse Septique regulations apply on an inheritance in the same way as with a purchase? Google isn't helping me here.
I'm not 100% certain when inheriting if it's treated just like a sale/purchase where the "diagnostics" are concerned but that's one of the reasons next doors kids weren't interested in inheriting as the place was a mess as far as the norms were concerned. It would have cost a fortune to bring the fosses (2 of them), electrics, insulation etc. etc. etc. all up to standard.
WyrleyD said:
If she inherits the property then there is still Capital Gains Tax to pay on the inheritance, no escape from CGT in France and I seem to remember that the rates are reduced for spouse and children, the following tax rates are way out of date (2007) but relate to close relative Inheritance Tax:
Property Value...Tax Rate
You will find that there is a huge amount of empty properties in France due mainly to the tax on inheritance laws.
I’ve just returned from a very long road trip to Carcassone and am absolutely staggered at the amount of empty / abandoned / derelict properties that I saw, both in towns, villages and in the middle of no where.Property Value...Tax Rate
- Less than 7,600 euro...5%
- 7,600 to 11,400 euro...10%
- 11,400 to 15,000 euro...15%
- 15,000 to 520,000 euro...20%
- 520,000 to 850,000 euro...30%
- 850,000 to 1,700,000 euro...35%
- 1,700,000 and above...40%
You will find that there is a huge amount of empty properties in France due mainly to the tax on inheritance laws.
Now I know why !!
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