Extracting more power from 2.0 Litre Duratec Best Choice
Discussion
Good Morning,
While living in Australia I have been thinking about how to improve my position on the CSCC Mag 7 grid and make the step up to the top step of the podium in the outright race. Currently I have 2 litre Duratec with 230 bhp and rev limit of 8000. I have had quite a few third place finishes beating all the cars in the class above (up to 260bhp) and having a dice with the big power 2.4 cars circa 330 bhp. However this has led me to think how can improve the car to extract more time
The rest of the car is top spec with same suspension etc as the big power cars so I have used all I can. I have used Tuition from Danny Winstanley Also (Caterham 420R Champion).
Regardless of which option I chose I will need to increase the fuel capacity of the car has its currently got the small 32 l bag tank which at Spa after 40 mins racing was on fumes when I came in. Additionally I may also install a gearbox cooler pending testing date to confirm if this was required on not.
I essentially have three options to extract more power all of which I want to limit RPM to 8000rpm to ensure engine life does not reduce exponentially.
- Option 1 - Fit some bigger cams to the current 2L engine to get a maximum of Circa 270 BHP
- Option 2 - Fit Rotrex supercharger to current engine
- Option - Fit 2.4 engine the same as the competition
I have listed the three options in respect to likely cost with the cheapest at the top and getting more expensive as you move down the list.
The downsides are as follows: -
Option 1 I'm still 60bhp down which at some tracks will be a significant disadvantage. If the engine was to let go its still an expensive rebuild state to get back to where I was.
Option 2 - Increase in weight over the front could affect the handling, chassis is an S3 which could provide packaging problems for heat management over a 40 minute race duration. Car runs paddle shift system will drag created by running the supercharger create more wear on the gearbox?
Option 3 - Cost is the primary disadvantage circa 15K for a 2.4 duratec which most of the front runners are rebuilding every 2 seasons.
I suppose there is still the option of leaving the car the way it is but having built it and developed it to where it is I am lost without having a project and the last race I did last year I was more or less driving on my own for most of the 40 mins.
Thanks in advance
Ross
While living in Australia I have been thinking about how to improve my position on the CSCC Mag 7 grid and make the step up to the top step of the podium in the outright race. Currently I have 2 litre Duratec with 230 bhp and rev limit of 8000. I have had quite a few third place finishes beating all the cars in the class above (up to 260bhp) and having a dice with the big power 2.4 cars circa 330 bhp. However this has led me to think how can improve the car to extract more time
The rest of the car is top spec with same suspension etc as the big power cars so I have used all I can. I have used Tuition from Danny Winstanley Also (Caterham 420R Champion).
Regardless of which option I chose I will need to increase the fuel capacity of the car has its currently got the small 32 l bag tank which at Spa after 40 mins racing was on fumes when I came in. Additionally I may also install a gearbox cooler pending testing date to confirm if this was required on not.
I essentially have three options to extract more power all of which I want to limit RPM to 8000rpm to ensure engine life does not reduce exponentially.
- Option 1 - Fit some bigger cams to the current 2L engine to get a maximum of Circa 270 BHP
- Option 2 - Fit Rotrex supercharger to current engine
- Option - Fit 2.4 engine the same as the competition
I have listed the three options in respect to likely cost with the cheapest at the top and getting more expensive as you move down the list.
The downsides are as follows: -
Option 1 I'm still 60bhp down which at some tracks will be a significant disadvantage. If the engine was to let go its still an expensive rebuild state to get back to where I was.
Option 2 - Increase in weight over the front could affect the handling, chassis is an S3 which could provide packaging problems for heat management over a 40 minute race duration. Car runs paddle shift system will drag created by running the supercharger create more wear on the gearbox?
Option 3 - Cost is the primary disadvantage circa 15K for a 2.4 duratec which most of the front runners are rebuilding every 2 seasons.
I suppose there is still the option of leaving the car the way it is but having built it and developed it to where it is I am lost without having a project and the last race I did last year I was more or less driving on my own for most of the 40 mins.
Thanks in advance
Ross
To get 270 bhp out of a 2L will require more than just cams. Your post does not indicate the spec of your engine, but assuming it has steel rods and forged pistons, you will need a ported CNC head and good exhaust to get anywhere near 270 bhp. Supercharging may be the easier route to more power but does add weight (supercharger and intercooler etc) and so may not add as much to the performance as you think.
My option (if cost is important) would be to just go for a factory 2.5L which can give up to 300 BHP with relatively straight forward tuning. IMHO the 2.4L is really an out dated concept and the extra stroke and cc of the 2.5L is too good to ignore, and if you can afford a steel crank for it, then it can be every bit as good at revving as the 2.4L.
My option (if cost is important) would be to just go for a factory 2.5L which can give up to 300 BHP with relatively straight forward tuning. IMHO the 2.4L is really an out dated concept and the extra stroke and cc of the 2.5L is too good to ignore, and if you can afford a steel crank for it, then it can be every bit as good at revving as the 2.4L.
Edited by DCL on Tuesday 26th March 11:45
2.5l duratec is a 5cyl, 2,4 a 4 pot. limited room under a caterham bonnet which is why the latter is used.
no info. for the OP other than there are no cheap options if you want to be at the front. also remember the limits of your current gearbox and diff as to whether those also need upgrading.
no info. for the OP other than there are no cheap options if you want to be at the front. also remember the limits of your current gearbox and diff as to whether those also need upgrading.
shirt said:
2.5l duratec is a 5cyl, 2,4 a 4 pot. limited room under a caterham bonnet which is why the latter is used.
no info. for the OP other than there are no cheap options if you want to be at the front. also remember the limits of your current gearbox and diff as to whether those also need upgrading.
I'm afraid you're not up to date with the latest Duratecs. The only HE I4 Duratec built now (for production cars in the American market) is the 2.5L I4 https://www.burtonpower.com/catalogsearch/result/?... . The 2L is available as a crate replacement engine to order. The 2.5L, with VVT removed, is 13mm taller and fits in the metric chassis.no info. for the OP other than there are no cheap options if you want to be at the front. also remember the limits of your current gearbox and diff as to whether those also need upgrading.
Edited by DCL on Tuesday 26th March 11:57
G'day Ross,
You are fast enough already ! Plus people with your amount of driving talent should not be allowed faster cars anyway ! :-)
Seriously, it would be great to see you with the hardware under you to be able to visit the top step.
I can't offer any really meaningful advice because as you know I am not very familiar with the Duratec engine, however I think that you are right to think that it is going to be very difficult to consistently beat the Team Leos and Boss run cars (especially in the dry) without somewhere in the region of 290 - 300 bhp.
I think that NA would be the way to go too rather than forced induction due to weight, heat management and simplicity.
Unfortunately expensive !
Of course what you really need is a overall lighter car with a proper engine ! ;-)
I hope that you are successful with whichever route you choose ............... just please don't some over from Oz to race in Mag 7's too often as it always pushes me a place further back down the grid !
Hopefully the car under Rich will be able to join you in mixing it up at the very front though :-)
Cheers
Steve
You are fast enough already ! Plus people with your amount of driving talent should not be allowed faster cars anyway ! :-)
Seriously, it would be great to see you with the hardware under you to be able to visit the top step.
I can't offer any really meaningful advice because as you know I am not very familiar with the Duratec engine, however I think that you are right to think that it is going to be very difficult to consistently beat the Team Leos and Boss run cars (especially in the dry) without somewhere in the region of 290 - 300 bhp.
I think that NA would be the way to go too rather than forced induction due to weight, heat management and simplicity.
Unfortunately expensive !
Of course what you really need is a overall lighter car with a proper engine ! ;-)
I hope that you are successful with whichever route you choose ............... just please don't some over from Oz to race in Mag 7's too often as it always pushes me a place further back down the grid !
Hopefully the car under Rich will be able to join you in mixing it up at the very front though :-)
Cheers
Steve
What does a 2.4 330 bhp Duratec engine cost? £30k plus? I think that was the last figure i hesrd bandied about, but no idea of provenance.
Given that the season starts in 2 weeks, just buy this one and sell yours!!!
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/9570...
:-)
Given that the season starts in 2 weeks, just buy this one and sell yours!!!
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/9570...
:-)
DCL said:
To get 270 bhp out of a 2L will require more than just cams. Your post does not indicate the spec of your engine, but assuming it has steel rods and forged pistons, you will need a ported CNC head and good exhaust to get anywhere near 270 bhp. Supercharging may be the easier route to more power but does add weight (supercharger and intercooler etc) and so may not add as much to the performance as you think.
Sorry I wasn’t clear on the specification level of the engine it does have forged piston’s & conrods, It has the hi flow head which has been ported, its fitted with the Cosworth roller barrel throttle bodies and Drysump which is internally driven.The crank is standard except for being keyed. There are some other modifications such as flywheel,superclutch, billet trigger wheel and electric water pump that have been installed in their lightest variants.
It has the same exhaust manifold (4-2-1) all the big power Caterham’s run with the titanium raceco silencer so this should not be a problem.
The engine builder who built the current spec built it for 260 / 270 bhp i'm just wondering if a steel crank is required or recommended and if i'm honest i'm not sure that makes it any clearer.
DCL said:
My option (if cost is important) would be to just go for a factory 2.5L which can give up to 300 BHP with relatively straight forward tuning. IMHO the 2.4L is really an out dated concept and the extra stroke and cc of the 2.5L is too good to ignore, and if you can afford a steel crank for it, then it can be every bit as good at revving as the 2.4L.
What sort of tuning would be required to give 300 bhp from a 2.5 if its the same as for the 2L am i any better off with the 2.5 and would this provide any longer life potentially between rebuilds?Dibba said:
G'day Ross,
You are fast enough already ! Plus people with your amount of driving talent should not be allowed faster cars anyway ! :-)
Seriously, it would be great to see you with the hardware under you to be able to visit the top step.
I can't offer any really meaningful advice because as you know I am not very familiar with the Duratec engine, however I think that you are right to think that it is going to be very difficult to consistently beat the Team Leos and Boss run cars (especially in the dry) without somewhere in the region of 290 - 300 bhp.
I think that NA would be the way to go too rather than forced induction due to weight, heat management and simplicity.
Unfortunately expensive !
Of course what you really need is a overall lighter car with a proper engine ! ;-)
I hope that you are successful with whichever route you choose ............... just please don't some over from Oz to race in Mag 7's too often as it always pushes me a place further back down the grid !
Hopefully the car under Rich will be able to join you in mixing it up at the very front though :-)
Cheers
Steve
Steve, thank you for the kind words however if i'm honest i feel that i am going backwards rather than forward i think i was driving at my best when i was in the Funcup and doing track days every month. It will be almost 11 months since i have driven competitively when i get back in the car. Hope to see you at Oulton. You are fast enough already ! Plus people with your amount of driving talent should not be allowed faster cars anyway ! :-)
Seriously, it would be great to see you with the hardware under you to be able to visit the top step.
I can't offer any really meaningful advice because as you know I am not very familiar with the Duratec engine, however I think that you are right to think that it is going to be very difficult to consistently beat the Team Leos and Boss run cars (especially in the dry) without somewhere in the region of 290 - 300 bhp.
I think that NA would be the way to go too rather than forced induction due to weight, heat management and simplicity.
Unfortunately expensive !
Of course what you really need is a overall lighter car with a proper engine ! ;-)
I hope that you are successful with whichever route you choose ............... just please don't some over from Oz to race in Mag 7's too often as it always pushes me a place further back down the grid !
Hopefully the car under Rich will be able to join you in mixing it up at the very front though :-)
Cheers
Steve
andy97 said:
What does a 2.4 330 bhp Duratec engine cost? £30k plus? I think that was the last figure i hesrd bandied about, but no idea of provenance.
Given that the season starts in 2 weeks, just buy this one and sell yours!!!
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/9570...
:-)
Hi Andy, I think i pitted next to you at Brands last year, I was in the blue Caterham, with the all of the dash on the steering wheel. Having built the car myself it has sentimental value to me and the chassis is customised to my requirements, the spec my car and that car are very similar excluding the engine and that about it however mine is lighter.Given that the season starts in 2 weeks, just buy this one and sell yours!!!
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/9570...
:-)
The last quote i got was 15K but i can't recall what that included i.e. Throttle bodies and dry sump may have been additional. Its still 3 times the price of my current engine and the question i keep asking is would I get 3 times the fun?
Ross_328i_sport said:
What sort of tuning would be required to give 300 bhp from a 2.5 if its the same as for the 2L am i any better off with the 2.5 and would this provide any longer life potentially between rebuilds?
If you take the 2L head off your engine, use same induction and exhaust, you can expect 30-50 more BHP. Ideally, if you can fit steel rods and forged pistons, then you can rev it to get 300+BHP without too much trouble. A crate engine is £2,500, pistons and rods £1,000, rebuild (minimal as new engine) £500, =£4,000Here's 2L v 2.5L
Down side is that you are at high mean piston speed quite early and that might need a rethink on gearing.
More can be found here http://duratecindetail.com
Edited by DCL on Wednesday 27th March 17:21
DCL said:
I'm afraid you're not up to date with the latest Duratecs. The only HE I4 Duratec built now (for production cars in the American market) is the 2.5L I4 https://www.burtonpower.com/catalogsearch/result/?... . The 2L is available as a crate replacement engine to order. The 2.5L, with VVT removed, is 13mm taller and fits in the metric chassis.
Everyday’s A school day, thanks. Edited by DCL on Tuesday 26th March 11:57
Actually not thanks as I had decided on an engine for my radical rolling chassis and this has got me re-thinking, again....
Hi Ross,
Where are you racing this year? Can you make Brands GP?
My only advice is don't be someone's guinea pig. People have poured a proper load of cash down holes trying to race a supercharged car. I don't claim to know the reasons why but Caterham did a load of development and didn't launch the supercharged car as a race series which also isn't a good sign.
I am at 290bhp from a 2.3 and can stay in the tow of the quicker cars above about 100mph. Its a good balance; bloody hard to win but I have a lot of fun trying.
In Mag 7s its tough to get parity. You can think you are getting there but someone else will spend more and move the game on again.
If you want a fair crack at winning, buy a 420R and race elsewhere.
J
Where are you racing this year? Can you make Brands GP?
My only advice is don't be someone's guinea pig. People have poured a proper load of cash down holes trying to race a supercharged car. I don't claim to know the reasons why but Caterham did a load of development and didn't launch the supercharged car as a race series which also isn't a good sign.
I am at 290bhp from a 2.3 and can stay in the tow of the quicker cars above about 100mph. Its a good balance; bloody hard to win but I have a lot of fun trying.
In Mag 7s its tough to get parity. You can think you are getting there but someone else will spend more and move the game on again.
If you want a fair crack at winning, buy a 420R and race elsewhere.
J
Just buy a Supersport or equivalent and race in Class B - the largest class in Mag7s. Win the class and enjoy kicking the backsides of those in supposedly quicker cars, whilst having some better battles in the midfield.
If enough people enter Class A, B and C maybe we can persuade CSCC to reintroduce the separate grids and you can win overall in that.
I will just be enjoying the view from the back!
If enough people enter Class A, B and C maybe we can persuade CSCC to reintroduce the separate grids and you can win overall in that.
I will just be enjoying the view from the back!
DCL said:
If you take the 2L head off your engine, use same induction and exhaust, you can expect 30-50 more BHP. Ideally, if you can fit steel rods and forged pistons, then you can rev it to get 300+BHP without too much trouble. A crate engine is £2,500, pistons and rods £1,000, rebuild (minimal as new engine) £500, =£4,000
Here's 2L v 2.5L
Down side is that you are at high mean piston speed quite early and that might need a rethink on gearing.
More can be found here http://duratecindetail.com
Hi David, thank you for the information and I have been watching the facebook page on your progress through the years and find it quite fascinating, I have also asked a few question in the past on your page. Here's 2L v 2.5L
Down side is that you are at high mean piston speed quite early and that might need a rethink on gearing.
More can be found here http://duratecindetail.com
To understand in more depth and to compare the same I note that you have previously had a CNC head installed was this fitted to the 2.5 engine in addition I also note that you have fitted a steel crank which offered significant weight savings when the component weight is considered. I assume the crank gives very little in relation to outright power improvement but ensures higher reliability when higher revs are concerned and potentially a faster pickup and better gear change. In relation to the head what approx. power difference would you anticipate between a good head and a CNC head when talking 2L and 2.5? I.e. is the head a limiting factor for the 2L above a certain BHP and what is this BHP approximately, similarly the same question but for the 2.5.
I note in your blog you are cautious about the rev limit on the 2.5 have you increased this during the season or have you kept it the same, can the 2.5 rev like the 2L or by its design limited when compared to the 2L.
Mitch911 said:
Hi Ross,
Where are you racing this year? Can you make Brands GP?
My only advice is don't be someone's guinea pig. People have poured a proper load of cash down holes trying to race a supercharged car. I don't claim to know the reasons why but Caterham did a load of development and didn't launch the supercharged car as a race series which also isn't a good sign.
I am at 290bhp from a 2.3 and can stay in the tow of the quicker cars above about 100mph. Its a good balance; bloody hard to win but I have a lot of fun trying.
In Mag 7s its tough to get parity. You can think you are getting there but someone else will spend more and move the game on again.
If you want a fair crack at winning, buy a 420R and race elsewhere.
J
Hi Jonathan,Where are you racing this year? Can you make Brands GP?
My only advice is don't be someone's guinea pig. People have poured a proper load of cash down holes trying to race a supercharged car. I don't claim to know the reasons why but Caterham did a load of development and didn't launch the supercharged car as a race series which also isn't a good sign.
I am at 290bhp from a 2.3 and can stay in the tow of the quicker cars above about 100mph. Its a good balance; bloody hard to win but I have a lot of fun trying.
In Mag 7s its tough to get parity. You can think you are getting there but someone else will spend more and move the game on again.
If you want a fair crack at winning, buy a 420R and race elsewhere.
J
I'm racing the Oulton Park round unfortunately I will be back in Oz when the Brands GP round is scheduled. Are you racing the mag 7's this year and do you still have the car or are you concentrating on the Toyo Series?
Understood and I can understand exactly what your saying as I'm still having niggling problems with some areas of the car which were not fully proven in longer race formats, however I hope these are resolved for Oulton.
Understood regarding your power and I think 290 or 300 would get me to a similar position just the last race I did I more or less after the first 2 laps drove the entire race on my own when I compare this to Croft and Spa where I was fighting for 3rd on the bumper of the boss car's it was slightly disappointing. I understand Brands is very local to Boss so assume it is their favourite hunting ground, that or they have found a setup where they can drive more consistently and me on the other hand have got slower being out of practice and a couple of car issues.
Understood regarding the 420R's and is the reason why I loved the Funcup so much. Lets see what develops in the future regarding living location prior to buying another race car.
Hopefully catch up with you at Oulton.
Cheers
Ross
Ross_328i_sport said:
Hi Jonathan,
I'm racing the Oulton Park round unfortunately I will be back in Oz when the Brands GP round is scheduled. Are you racing the mag 7's this year and do you still have the car or are you concentrating on the Toyo Series?
Understood and I can understand exactly what your saying as I'm still having niggling problems with some areas of the car which were not fully proven in longer race formats, however I hope these are resolved for Oulton.
Understood regarding your power and I think 290 or 300 would get me to a similar position just the last race I did I more or less after the first 2 laps drove the entire race on my own when I compare this to Croft and Spa where I was fighting for 3rd on the bumper of the boss car's it was slightly disappointing. I understand Brands is very local to Boss so assume it is their favourite hunting ground, that or they have found a setup where they can drive more consistently and me on the other hand have got slower being out of practice and a couple of car issues.
Understood regarding the 420R's and is the reason why I loved the Funcup so much. Lets see what develops in the future regarding living location prior to buying another race car.
Hopefully catch up with you at Oulton.
Cheers
Ross
I think i'm doing Snett, Brands GP and maybe one other with the CSCC. Plus a few Toyo rounds and hopefully some other stuff.I'm racing the Oulton Park round unfortunately I will be back in Oz when the Brands GP round is scheduled. Are you racing the mag 7's this year and do you still have the car or are you concentrating on the Toyo Series?
Understood and I can understand exactly what your saying as I'm still having niggling problems with some areas of the car which were not fully proven in longer race formats, however I hope these are resolved for Oulton.
Understood regarding your power and I think 290 or 300 would get me to a similar position just the last race I did I more or less after the first 2 laps drove the entire race on my own when I compare this to Croft and Spa where I was fighting for 3rd on the bumper of the boss car's it was slightly disappointing. I understand Brands is very local to Boss so assume it is their favourite hunting ground, that or they have found a setup where they can drive more consistently and me on the other hand have got slower being out of practice and a couple of car issues.
Understood regarding the 420R's and is the reason why I loved the Funcup so much. Lets see what develops in the future regarding living location prior to buying another race car.
Hopefully catch up with you at Oulton.
Cheers
Ross
If you can get to 270-290, i think you will be right in the mix and it should be reliable at that level. I still really rate the Mag 7s; its good racing, good track time, good circuits and a great bunch of people.
Have a look at their facebook page or website below. Its very similar to the Caterham series (specs are locked) but runs different tyres and they organise an incredible calendar. This year they are racing at Brands GP, Donington and Snetterton in the UK, plus Spa, Imola, Jarama, Ascari, Portimao and Estoril across Europe.
https://www.7raceseries.co.uk/
https://www.7raceseries.co.uk/
Ross_328i_sport said:
Hi David, thank you for the information and I have been watching the facebook page on your progress through the years and find it quite fascinating, I have also asked a few question in the past on your page.
To understand in more depth and to compare the same I note that you have previously had a CNC head installed was this fitted to the 2.5 engine in addition I also note that you have fitted a steel crank which offered significant weight savings when the component weight is considered. I assume the crank gives very little in relation to outright power improvement but ensures higher reliability when higher revs are concerned and potentially a faster pickup and better gear change. In relation to the head what approx. power difference would you anticipate between a good head and a CNC head when talking 2L and 2.5? I.e. is the head a limiting factor for the 2L above a certain BHP and what is this BHP approximately, similarly the same question but for the 2.5.
I note in your blog you are cautious about the rev limit on the 2.5 have you increased this during the season or have you kept it the same, can the 2.5 rev like the 2L or by its design limited when compared to the 2L.
The comparison of the 2.5L head to the 2L is an interesting subject. Bearing in mind the ports around the valves are very similar between the two, you could wonder why the the 2.5L head was developed. The reason is to do with the RPM at which the engine is intended to be used. Any advantage the 2.5L head has, in terms of port size, is mainly at the lower engine speeds (where there's very little pulse tuning). As you get to competition rpm's the two become very similar and a good 2L CNC head is hard to beat. I don't have firsthand experience of using the 2.5L in competition use, but the figures from the 2L are good value for money if you have a ported 2L head to start with. To understand in more depth and to compare the same I note that you have previously had a CNC head installed was this fitted to the 2.5 engine in addition I also note that you have fitted a steel crank which offered significant weight savings when the component weight is considered. I assume the crank gives very little in relation to outright power improvement but ensures higher reliability when higher revs are concerned and potentially a faster pickup and better gear change. In relation to the head what approx. power difference would you anticipate between a good head and a CNC head when talking 2L and 2.5? I.e. is the head a limiting factor for the 2L above a certain BHP and what is this BHP approximately, similarly the same question but for the 2.5.
I note in your blog you are cautious about the rev limit on the 2.5 have you increased this during the season or have you kept it the same, can the 2.5 rev like the 2L or by its design limited when compared to the 2L.
My engine has gone to 8300 rpm without any issues, but the dentist bills, and feeling of impending doom, means I seldom do that. Gear changes are at 7600 and I will go a little higher when gearing demands it. To be honest, I think mechanically 8500 rpm is possible but the vibration levels would become damaging to the rest of the car.
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