The real Iraq issue
Discussion
I know there’s been loads spoken about Iraq (did Blair lie, etc..), but I reckon the episode could have a significant (negative) effect on our security.
Specifically, the fact that the intelligence was so wrong must call into question the entire UK and US intelligence services. If a business made the mistakes that the intelligence services made it would go the way of Rover, no question. Secondly, if there comes a time when The UK needs to take military action against a rogue state based on intelligence the PM will have a massive task getting the country on-side. And if he fails to do so we could be at risk.
Specifically, the fact that the intelligence was so wrong must call into question the entire UK and US intelligence services. If a business made the mistakes that the intelligence services made it would go the way of Rover, no question. Secondly, if there comes a time when The UK needs to take military action against a rogue state based on intelligence the PM will have a massive task getting the country on-side. And if he fails to do so we could be at risk.
srebbe64 said:
I know there’s been loads spoken about Iraq (did Blair lie, etc..), but I reckon the episode could have a significant (negative) effect on our security.
Specifically, the fact that the intelligence was so wrong must call into question the entire UK and US intelligence services. If a business made the mistakes that the intelligence services made it would go the way of Rover, no question. Secondly, if there comes a time when The UK needs to take military action against a rogue state based on intelligence the PM will have a massive task getting the country on-side. And if he fails to do so we could be at risk.
Yes, funny no one has actually asked that question, isnt it? If you think a step further then one has to question a HUGE amount of what we are told by the government and a lot of conventional wisdom about many issues going on in the world today, may be simply wrong. Prior to the war, it amazed me how readily people accepted the governments claims, as if they never lie, I guess we thought they could never lie about something so serious.
Erm intelligence wrong?
me all the years of weapons inspectors overseeing the destruction of wmd in Iraq since GW1 must be making it all up then.
He had wmd in the past, he was a devious little sh1t and 1 wanted sanctions lifted, but also wanted to make sure those around him believed he still had big teeth.
Intelligence isnt an exact science and dont blame the intelligence if those using it have an agenda.
I still support the war, but I can live with the idea it was just for oil.
me all the years of weapons inspectors overseeing the destruction of wmd in Iraq since GW1 must be making it all up then. He had wmd in the past, he was a devious little sh1t and 1 wanted sanctions lifted, but also wanted to make sure those around him believed he still had big teeth.
Intelligence isnt an exact science and dont blame the intelligence if those using it have an agenda.
I still support the war, but I can live with the idea it was just for oil.
rich1231 said:
Erm intelligence wrong?
He had wmd in the past, he was a devious little sh1t and 1 wanted sanctions lifted, but also wanted to make sure those around him believed he still had big teeth.
Intelligence isnt an exact science and dont blame the intelligence if those using it have an agenda.
I still support the war, but I can live with the idea it was just for oil.
Ummm yes, in case you hadn't noticed, the intelligence was indeed wrong, as admitted by the government already. Yes he had WMDs in the past, but evidently they had been decommissioned. Intelligence is not exact, but 9/11 highlights how truly appalling intelligence on the arab world is. But then again, if intelligence is doubtful, then the Bliar shouldnt tried to sell it to us as iron-clad evidence, as did the Americans who produced tapes etc etc.
I am glad that you are consistent in your support for the war, you'll be happy to know I am consistent in my opposition to it. If it simply was for oil, then it's been a bloody bad mistake, given the price of a barrell of crude oil. Iraq isn't stable, and there is no control, and that status will continue and it's people will continue to suffer.
Good ridance to Saddam Hussien.
And don't be too sure about those weapons of mass destruction. He had plently of opportunity to hide them.
It is worth remembering that secret hideouts, made during World War 2, sometimes come to light in this country. There was one discovered a few years ago in someones back garden. Underground was a secret bunker with rusting equipment ready to fight a guerilla war in the event of German invasion.
These bases were built by our own people and hidden under our noses for decades. If we can hide such things from ourselves then so can Saddam.
Intelligence is always shaky as few nations are very open about their military activities. Spies, counter spies, false information and guesswork won't always give an accurate result.
Blair had to make a decision and he probably used the best information to hand. It looks as if it was wrong but as I pointed out above we don't know that, we just assume it.
And don't be too sure about those weapons of mass destruction. He had plently of opportunity to hide them.
It is worth remembering that secret hideouts, made during World War 2, sometimes come to light in this country. There was one discovered a few years ago in someones back garden. Underground was a secret bunker with rusting equipment ready to fight a guerilla war in the event of German invasion.
These bases were built by our own people and hidden under our noses for decades. If we can hide such things from ourselves then so can Saddam.
Intelligence is always shaky as few nations are very open about their military activities. Spies, counter spies, false information and guesswork won't always give an accurate result.
Blair had to make a decision and he probably used the best information to hand. It looks as if it was wrong but as I pointed out above we don't know that, we just assume it.
hugoagogo said:
He had wmd in the past, he was a devious little sh1t
yes, how did Britain and America know he had them? by checking their own invoices
Right the US and UK were only responsible for a small fraction of arms sold to Iraq. Thats fact. Or did you see the Iraqi armed forces using anything else but Soviet weapons, and tanks?
Iraq had used WMD, and did have alarge wmd program as detailed in endless UN reports from the 90's.
Please allow reality to enter your world at least once tonight.
I doubt very much that the intelligence will prove to be ultimately incorrect . Just that the so called "leaders" used it for their own political ends at the time .
I read a comment in one of the papers the other day , " Right war , wrong reason " which is something I tend to agree with having been in GW1 amongst others .
I read a comment in one of the papers the other day , " Right war , wrong reason " which is something I tend to agree with having been in GW1 amongst others .
rich1231 said:Yup, as the Kurds will testify.
Iraq had used WMD, and did have a large WMD program as detailed in endless UN reports from the 90's.
NHyde said:
Right war, wrong reason
Yup.
The real kicker has got to be the body count though, the war and the following two years dont even come close to Saddam, being in the hundreds of thousands rather than several millions (although he did have a 20 year headstart).
Only time will tell, ten to twenty years, none of this short term business.
Not nice though, any of it.
rich1231 said:
Right the US and UK were only responsible for a small fraction of arms sold to Iraq. Thats fact. Or did you see the Iraqi armed forces using anything else but Soviet weapons, and tanks?
Iraq had used WMD, and did have alarge wmd program as detailed in endless UN reports from the 90's.
Please allow reality to enter your world at least once tonight.
reality, right
tanks and AKs aren't WMD by the current definition
british companies were involved in supplying WMDs to Iraq
www.sundayherald.com/31710
did you see Iraq using Soviet satellites to increase the effectiveness of their poison gas attacks on the Kurds and the Iranians? nope, it was US satellite intelligence
www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/8/18/81805.shtml
by all means disagree, but I'd suggest it's you who is blind to the realities of international business/politics/war
Iraq was a client regime, it was supplied with nasty things by 'the good guys'
As i understand it, one of the "big elephants in the room" that no-one bothered looking at was the fact that, even if he had loads of WMD from when he gassed the kurds, their half-life would have reduced over the past 10 years to severely affect their stability, and the means to deploy them.
So even if had vast caverns of WMD's , they would not have been able to threaten downtown Surbiton with them - which is the precise lie that the Government allowed people to believe...
I'm getting a deja-vu here....
So even if had vast caverns of WMD's , they would not have been able to threaten downtown Surbiton with them - which is the precise lie that the Government allowed people to believe...
I'm getting a deja-vu here....
NHyde said:
I doubt very much that the intelligence will prove to be ultimately incorrect . Just that the so called "leaders" used it for their own political ends at the time .
I read a comment in one of the papers the other day , " Right war , wrong reason " which is something I tend to agree with having been in GW1 amongst others .
And I reckon you could trust that source. As far as I remember the intelligence was correct. Wasn't it Tony Blair that told Alistair Campbell that he needed a reason for war.
Wasn't it Alistair Campbell that got the intelligence modified so that Tony could say he didn't lie.
Since Tony had used Alistair for years as his press interface, I find it difficult to believe that Tony didn't Alistairs methods.
I don't think Tony is stupid enough not to extrapolate this knowledge into what happened with the intelligence.
He's either negligent or a liar.
hugoagogo said:
so, the russkies and the frogs are nasty people who support other nasty people
the brits and the americans are the global good guys who do no wrong, anyone who says different is a liar and a fool
that's reality?
Yep - to a number of Bush supporters, that just about sums up the world right now..
Go Team America ! World Police !
Wrap it up in a flag and call it patriotism, and make it a heresy among your people to even question your leaders. You gotta admire their sheer balls in pulling it off ...
cymtriks said:
Good ridance to Saddam Hussien.
And don't be too sure about those weapons of mass destruction. He had plently of opportunity to hide them.
It is worth remembering that secret hideouts, made during World War 2, sometimes come to light in this country. There was one discovered a few years ago in someones back garden. Underground was a secret bunker with rusting equipment ready to fight a guerilla war in the event of German invasion.
These bases were built by our own people and hidden under our noses for decades. If we can hide such things from ourselves then so can Saddam.
Intelligence is always shaky as few nations are very open about their military activities. Spies, counter spies, false information and guesswork won't always give an accurate result.
Blair had to make a decision and he probably used the best information to hand. It looks as if it was wrong but as I pointed out above we don't know that, we just assume it.
Well said!
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