Britain's National Shipbuilding Strategy
Discussion
Britain's national shipbuilding strategy has finally been released. It wasn't worth waiting for. Other than the Type 26 and Type 31 frigates, which we knew we would get in any case, the fleet solid support ships, and future R.F.A. ships will be open to foreign competition. Britain's national shipbuilding strategy is that many, many Royal Navy ships will be open to foreign competition. What a joke.
Canada has also recently released a national shipbuilding strategy, a proper one, where ALL Navy ships will be built in Canada (including support, including everything).
We want ALL Royal Navy ships built in Britain. We do not want Royal Navy ships being used to keep foreign shipbuilding in business, and foreign engineers in work.
Canada has also recently released a national shipbuilding strategy, a proper one, where ALL Navy ships will be built in Canada (including support, including everything).
We want ALL Royal Navy ships built in Britain. We do not want Royal Navy ships being used to keep foreign shipbuilding in business, and foreign engineers in work.
hardworker said:
Britain's national shipbuilding strategy has finally been released. It wasn't worth waiting for. Other than the Type 26 and Type 31 frigates, which we knew we would get in any case, the fleet solid support ships, and future R.F.A. ships will be open to foreign competition. Britain's national shipbuilding strategy is that many, many Royal Navy ships will be open to foreign competition. What a joke.
Canada has also recently released a national shipbuilding strategy, a proper one, where ALL Navy ships will be built in Canada (including support, including everything).
We want ALL Royal Navy ships built in Britain. We do not want Royal Navy ships being used to keep foreign shipbuilding in business, and foreign engineers in work.
I agree but we are still part of the EU ,this limit's our ability to put national interests first, having said that I don't hold out much hope of things changing, when our defence minister didn't know that RFA ships were being built in Korea.Canada has also recently released a national shipbuilding strategy, a proper one, where ALL Navy ships will be built in Canada (including support, including everything).
We want ALL Royal Navy ships built in Britain. We do not want Royal Navy ships being used to keep foreign shipbuilding in business, and foreign engineers in work.
Probably not, but unless you start somewhere you are never going to have the capacity,
for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
PRTVR said:
Probably not, but unless you start somewhere you are never going to have the capacity,
for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
The problem is A contract like these new warships comes in, you ramp up facilities and staff and then you have 20years to the next contract. The big Korean yards will get all the commercial work. for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
We should focus on small vessels which the UK are good at and out source the large projects.
Interesting that people want ship building in the UK but the yards don’t bid for the contracts.
ecsrobin said:
PRTVR said:
Probably not, but unless you start somewhere you are never going to have the capacity,
for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
The problem is A contract like these new warships comes in, you ramp up facilities and staff and then you have 20years to the next contract. The big Korean yards will get all the commercial work. for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
We should focus on small vessels which the UK are good at and out source the large projects.
Interesting that people want ship building in the UK but the yards don’t bid for the contracts.
PRTVR said:
I agree but we are still part of the EU ,this limit's our ability to put national interests first
One of my friends is in sales for a big British switchgear company - they do a lot of defence work. Although UK firms will go "by the rule book" and allow EU companies equal "rights" and award contracts, he's been told in no uncertain terms that French companies will not be using anything but French switchgear. They're quite blatant about it.SystemParanoia said:
ecsrobin said:
PRTVR said:
Probably not, but unless you start somewhere you are never going to have the capacity,
for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
The problem is A contract like these new warships comes in, you ramp up facilities and staff and then you have 20years to the next contract. The big Korean yards will get all the commercial work. for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
We should focus on small vessels which the UK are good at and out source the large projects.
Interesting that people want ship building in the UK but the yards don’t bid for the contracts.
SystemParanoia said:
ecsrobin said:
PRTVR said:
Probably not, but unless you start somewhere you are never going to have the capacity,
for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
The problem is A contract like these new warships comes in, you ramp up facilities and staff and then you have 20years to the next contract. The big Korean yards will get all the commercial work. for me it's more important than just a cost analysis, it could be a way to give good paying jobs to run down parts of the country, there is also the point as an island nation perhaps it's a capacity we should have.
We should focus on small vessels which the UK are good at and out source the large projects.
Interesting that people want ship building in the UK but the yards don’t bid for the contracts.
I find it disappointing that we appear to have given up on large engineering, in Sunderland a new bridge has been built across the river wear, the main metalworking was made in Belgium and shipped across, this from an area that use to build bridges for the world,
if even the chocolate makers can do heavy engineering surely we can ?
Nanook said:
PRTVR said:
if even the chocolate makers can do heavy engineering surely we can ?
king wrecked heavy industry in our country. We priced ourselves out of the market, not only for export, but for ourselves.PRTVR said:
Nanook said:
PRTVR said:
if even the chocolate makers can do heavy engineering surely we can ?
king wrecked heavy industry in our country. We priced ourselves out of the market, not only for export, but for ourselves.hardworker said:
Canada has also recently released a national shipbuilding strategy, a proper one, where ALL Navy ships will be built in Canada (including support, including everything)
And they're currently advertising on local radio in Scotland seeking experienced ship builders to relocate to Nova Scotia. Good job we're out sourcing for our boats, not sure class 5 at Brixham primary school are up to the task because at this rate, that's all we'll have left.
Dog Star said:
One of my friends is in sales for a big British switchgear company - they do a lot of defence work. Although UK firms will go "by the rule book" and allow EU companies equal "rights" and award contracts, he's been told in no uncertain terms that French companies will not be using anything but French switchgear. They're quite blatant about it.
I don't think there is a company in the UK manufacturing the business end of "switchgear" that isn't owned by a foreign interest - German, French & American now.Panel builders though, - plenty around.
Nanook said:
PRTVR said:
if even the chocolate makers can do heavy engineering surely we can ?
king wrecked heavy industry in our country. We priced ourselves out of the market, not only for export, but for ourselves.Nanook said:
hairyben said:
Oh, the darstardly unions, the americans, japanese, germans etc are so lucky not to have unions to thrawt their heavy industry.
Productive post.I work in the UK shipbuilding industry, and have done, for ten years, as a self employed consultant. I can't comment on USA, Japan, etc. because I don't have first hand experience there, but I do here, and I see the long term damage the unions are still trying to inflict, for their short term gain.
Perhaps it's just the mindset of someone that's always been self employed, and never expected or received anything handed to them on a plate, but the damage that some trade unions have inflicted on our industry for decades now, pisses me off.
As someone whose been at higher level you've not been able to witness the sheer idiocy that blue collar workers have to deal with every day, the lack of respect, the institutionalised idea that "anyone beneath me is scum class and stupid, and I can deceive them", and ultimately the weight of the threat of union action being the only leverage against those higher up. It's so endemic you can't even suggest to a line manager a better way of completing a task as it's generally taken as a challenge to authority rather than the "lets work smarter" spirit it's meant it. I think a lot of the time unions strike over what the public see as a "stupid" thing when the stupid thing is only really a trigger, there's underlying pressure and they have to remind those above they're not unimportant.
This is endemic in British culture and probably comes so naturally to many they'd struggle to appreciate they're doing it. It worked okay when workers had no rights to object, but that time has passed, but this ghost of the "I'm superior" class system remains.
hairyben said:
America, Japan and Germany all have strong unions, ask yourself why excel at the manufacturing people constantly blame the unions for destroying in Britain. Where they differ is in respect and understanding, Japan management spend a day on the factory floor doing the job, German union reps sit on the management board, America doesn't have the english class snobbery system and thats where the rot emanates from IMO. Hell even the froggies do manufacturing and their unions seem to pretty much run the country.
As someone whose been at higher level you've not been able to witness the sheer idiocy that blue collar workers have to deal with every day, the lack of respect, the institutionalised idea that "anyone beneath me is scum class and stupid, and I can deceive them", and ultimately the weight of the threat of union action being the only leverage against those higher up. It's so endemic you can't even suggest to a line manager a better way of completing a task as it's generally taken as a challenge to authority rather than the "lets work smarter" spirit it's meant it. I think a lot of the time unions strike over what the public see as a "stupid" thing when the stupid thing is only really a trigger, there's underlying pressure and they have to remind those above they're not unimportant.
This is endemic in British culture and probably comes so naturally to many they'd struggle to appreciate they're doing it. It worked okay when workers had no rights to object, but that time has passed, but this ghost of the "I'm superior" class system remains.
I have no doubt that crap management played its part too, but the scenario you paint above of plucky british unions struggling to make reasonable points in the face of their posh, demeaning overlords is utter nonsense. I have witnessed first hand what some of those so called reasonable union demands are like, plus I have seen the financial consequences that those demands can inflict on a company. As someone whose been at higher level you've not been able to witness the sheer idiocy that blue collar workers have to deal with every day, the lack of respect, the institutionalised idea that "anyone beneath me is scum class and stupid, and I can deceive them", and ultimately the weight of the threat of union action being the only leverage against those higher up. It's so endemic you can't even suggest to a line manager a better way of completing a task as it's generally taken as a challenge to authority rather than the "lets work smarter" spirit it's meant it. I think a lot of the time unions strike over what the public see as a "stupid" thing when the stupid thing is only really a trigger, there's underlying pressure and they have to remind those above they're not unimportant.
This is endemic in British culture and probably comes so naturally to many they'd struggle to appreciate they're doing it. It worked okay when workers had no rights to object, but that time has passed, but this ghost of the "I'm superior" class system remains.
Thankfully we have in large part moved on from such chippy nonsense .
As for the original post - could Britain really fight any kind of war against a peer without widespread international support and consent? War often comes down to logistics - the ability to resupply, re arm etc - can we make ships or even the raw steel? Can we repair or rebuild the american/european consortium jets of our air force or restock the munitions they carry? (Thats aside from the timescales these things take to build today)
There was a lot of international opposition to the Falklands campaign where most countries probably just wanted to sit on the fence - would an unpopular war that would incur losses and necessitate resupply be possible? Do we really have independence?
There was a lot of international opposition to the Falklands campaign where most countries probably just wanted to sit on the fence - would an unpopular war that would incur losses and necessitate resupply be possible? Do we really have independence?
andymadmak said:
I have no doubt that crap management played its part too, but the scenario you paint above of plucky british unions struggling to make reasonable points in the face of their posh, demeaning overlords is utter nonsense. I have witnessed first hand what some of those so called reasonable union demands are like, plus I have seen the financial consequences that those demands can inflict on a company.
Thankfully we have in large part moved on from such chippy nonsense .
The attitudes still exist albeit in more subtle form. I wouldn't say unions and unionised workforces can't act or react like assholes either - only tried to paint a picture of what goes on.Thankfully we have in large part moved on from such chippy nonsense .
it's not about posh overlords v plucky workers either - some of the biggest assholes in the industry have and will always be the lads-done-good who jump to management and seem the most willing to inflict their newfound power on all the 2nd raters they look down upon now.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff