Which ? Porsche 911 RS 2.7; 964 RS or Lotus Exige?
Discussion
quote:
Which of these is the best choice regarding:
- fun
- deprication
- reliability
- running costs?
Bodo
Yeah, it *has* to be the 964RS.
FUN
The C2RS is an absolute hoot. Basically an oversized Caterham/go-kart. The others are good, too, but the Exige is apparently less friendly on the limit and sounds like a cement mixer. My decatted sports exhaust RS sounds like a chainsaw slicing through silk at 7k revs. The 2.7 is meant to be even more fun, but I suppose you have to have a 40k budget and like your classic cars to fully appreciate its virtues.
DEPRECIATION
The C2RS won't, and may go up. The Exige will go down, probably by quite a lot. The 2.7 RS won't and may also appreciate, but entry costs are much higher and you get into the realm of anal concours consciousness - the wrong history, spec or turtle wax air freshener and the cognascenti will devalue your car.
RUNNING COSTS
The 2.7 is a seventies car. Things go wrong with seventies cars, no matter how good. Remember the brakes are shit compared to a 964RS as well. As for the Exige, well the K-series is not the most reliable unit in the world. I know of porous head Superlight Rs and my K series in my 414i second car has had head gasket leaks in its time. It's also built by Lotus. Let's just say that my Lotus Carlton lived up to the 'Lots of Trouble' acronym, and after going around Hethel, the only Lotus I'd own now is an Elise S2 - basically fully productionised compared to the Esprit, and even the smaller production Exige. The C2RS does 25mpg, costs from about 37 quid an hour to service at a very good independent and is tuneable to 320bhp without internal engine mods for reasonable money. A few things go wrong as it is an early nineties car, but these tend to be 'once in a lifetime' costs, and there's nothing serious in there.
You may want to ask an Exige and 2.7 owner for a less biased opinion though
>> Edited by domster on Friday 6th September 09:59
quote:
If you could get hold of a 964 RSR (the ultra lightweight er, Lightweight!) even better.
More soul, more speed, more handling, more sound, more everything!
Again, I'm a bit biased here, and love the RSR, but at an entry of 40k LHD they are pricey and rare also...
More soul? Hmmm, debatable - they are a wide body fat arse compared to the featherlight RS. They weigh more and their top speed is heavily affected because of increased drag from the bigger frontal areas and biplane rear wing. The wheels are heavier split rims, too, etc. They are less pure than an RS, to many.
More speed? They have 300 not '260'bhp. Standard RSs typically put out nearer 280bhp from the factory and will do 320bhp on Motec fuel mapping/944 turbo injectors when fitted. In a lighter car with less drag. I'd like to see them tested head to head, and I wouldn't be surprised if the less aggressive looking car pipped 'the beast'!
More sound? Hmmm, you'd have to hear mine. They don't get much louder or more harmonic. The RSR could come with carpet, just like the RS, so no more lack of sound deadening unless in Club Sport spec.
More everything? More weight, yes. More drag, yes. More unweildy on a B road, yes. More money to purchase... On the other hand, more downforce and a wider track. So more grip. And more aggressive styling, certainly. I love the RSR, but don't be fooled by it.
>> Edited by domster on Friday 6th September 10:09
Thanks for your comments!
Nobody for an Exige?
My thoughts were, to buy a car, which is a true sportscar, and not a compromise, as I really don't need a car to drive from A to B.
Occasionally, I'll have a weekend trip or a drive from A to A via B or some alpine passes or the Nordschleife. Should be 5ooo kms/year.
Budget depends on value of the car; it should be something like a low risk investment, with fixed costs for full comp. insurance, a closed carport, and an anually service.
My personal favourite is the 2.7RS, but for probably more reliabilty, it should be the 964RS.
The Exige seems to be adequate for that use, too; but I wonder if it doesn't cost more in the end, especially maintenance
Exiges cost €37...42k (10k...30k kms); 964RS €35...50k (less than 100k kms) and 2.7RS €50k-ish (good condition)
I don't think, an investment like this will give positive interest, but definitly a bigger grin from ear to ear than a 4% return for a conservative investment
cheers,
Bodo
Nobody for an Exige?
My thoughts were, to buy a car, which is a true sportscar, and not a compromise, as I really don't need a car to drive from A to B.
Occasionally, I'll have a weekend trip or a drive from A to A via B or some alpine passes or the Nordschleife. Should be 5ooo kms/year.
Budget depends on value of the car; it should be something like a low risk investment, with fixed costs for full comp. insurance, a closed carport, and an anually service.
My personal favourite is the 2.7RS, but for probably more reliabilty, it should be the 964RS.
The Exige seems to be adequate for that use, too; but I wonder if it doesn't cost more in the end, especially maintenance
Exiges cost €37...42k (10k...30k kms); 964RS €35...50k (less than 100k kms) and 2.7RS €50k-ish (good condition)
I don't think, an investment like this will give positive interest, but definitly a bigger grin from ear to ear than a 4% return for a conservative investment
cheers,
Bodo
As long as you have a second car, you'll love the 964RS.
It is the best car purchase I have ever made, and one of the best sports cars I have ever driven.
A rare blend of reliability, reasonable running costs, classic design, character and staggering handling.
If you ever want to take a look at mine, get yourself to Bucks.
It is the best car purchase I have ever made, and one of the best sports cars I have ever driven.
A rare blend of reliability, reasonable running costs, classic design, character and staggering handling.
If you ever want to take a look at mine, get yourself to Bucks.
For me it's a tossup between the 964RS and the 2.7RS. Obviously I love the 964RS, however I'v been for a ride in a regular 2.7 (? - think it was) Carrera and loved it. The the way car responded, the engine revved.. even as an older car with less power and more potential problems and poorer chassis, it's much lighter and you can feel that lightness in the way the car responds. Just loads of fun to drive.
The Exige is nowhere in this list for me. It might be a great car, but it lacks the solidity and reliability of the Porsches, and is slower (honest!) to boot. Both RS's are legendary cars because they genuinely are greater than the sum of their parts.
The only possible rival might be a Caterfield of some kind, but that'd involve even more hair-shirt-edness for a small decrease in lap times.
P
The Exige is nowhere in this list for me. It might be a great car, but it lacks the solidity and reliability of the Porsches, and is slower (honest!) to boot. Both RS's are legendary cars because they genuinely are greater than the sum of their parts.
The only possible rival might be a Caterfield of some kind, but that'd involve even more hair-shirt-edness for a small decrease in lap times.
P
Yeah, but you'll need it with an Exige!
Interestingly, Evo today has a 911 RS feature. They claim the RSR was stripped out with roll cage as standard, but the one I saw had full carpet as well a roll cage - I distinctly remember the Carrera RSR scrpt in the carpet above the rear bench! Lovely.
The weight of the RS fluctuates depending on who you believe. 1190kgs is lowest quoted figure, 1229 highest.
Power outputs are difficult gauge, as the factory motor produced more than the 260bhp quoted. It wasn't just a re-chip. They balanced and blueprinted it. Plus it has a lighter flywheel than the C2, so revs a little more. I am not sure what a cat bypass/silencer bypass achieves in terms of performance. Not a lot. I certainly didn't notice a difference. Maybe a few bhp, and it's perhaps a bit keener towards the red line, but no real increase in urge. Motec does that, upping it from 270-280 to 320bhp. And you can feel that difference, apparently...
Cat bypass and silencer bypass sound magnificent though. Quite uninspiring without them, to be honest.
Cheers
Domster
PS Saw an Esprit V8 yesterday Rob, and thought of you! Hope it's going OK
Interestingly, Evo today has a 911 RS feature. They claim the RSR was stripped out with roll cage as standard, but the one I saw had full carpet as well a roll cage - I distinctly remember the Carrera RSR scrpt in the carpet above the rear bench! Lovely.
The weight of the RS fluctuates depending on who you believe. 1190kgs is lowest quoted figure, 1229 highest.
Power outputs are difficult gauge, as the factory motor produced more than the 260bhp quoted. It wasn't just a re-chip. They balanced and blueprinted it. Plus it has a lighter flywheel than the C2, so revs a little more. I am not sure what a cat bypass/silencer bypass achieves in terms of performance. Not a lot. I certainly didn't notice a difference. Maybe a few bhp, and it's perhaps a bit keener towards the red line, but no real increase in urge. Motec does that, upping it from 270-280 to 320bhp. And you can feel that difference, apparently...
Cat bypass and silencer bypass sound magnificent though. Quite uninspiring without them, to be honest.
Cheers
Domster
PS Saw an Esprit V8 yesterday Rob, and thought of you! Hope it's going OK
quote:
Yeah, but you'll need it with an Exige!
he he!! can't argue with that one..
quote:
Cat bypass and silencer bypass sound magnificent though. Quite uninspiring without them, to be honest.
..bit like an esprit without the sports exhaust - very dull
quote:
PS Saw an Esprit V8 yesterday Rob, and thought of you! Hope it's going OK
Don't tell me - back of a transporter? Side of the road with AA van??
Yeah i'm fine & the cars great, just silly expensive to run as my only car - i see you have a day-to-day vehicle as well as the RS. I really should do that too.
cheers!
Nah, I wasn't having a swipe re seeing an Esprit. I had a colemans (norfolk mustard!) V8 come up behind me on the A34 the other day. He looked like he fancied a tangle, but it was rush hour so I wasn't going to be silly. They handle very well and go quicker than my RS in a straight line, I think, so respect was due.
Just that nasty gear change and slightly dodgy build quality that put me off one of Hethel's finest. Yours is a lovely looking car. Second car option a good way to go. I commute two days a week in the Rover at 35mpg, and do all my long journeys in it. Pays for itself, plus it's good for the supermarket and as a tow car etc... should you need it
Just that nasty gear change and slightly dodgy build quality that put me off one of Hethel's finest. Yours is a lovely looking car. Second car option a good way to go. I commute two days a week in the Rover at 35mpg, and do all my long journeys in it. Pays for itself, plus it's good for the supermarket and as a tow car etc... should you need it
A Porsche can't touch an Exige round a track like Donington. Sure, it'll straight-line out-drag an Exige, but come to the twisties, and the Exige embarass the Porsche. It's just a matter of physics, especially given the Exige's high downforce vs. kerb weight ratio.
Sure, a Porsche will be more reliable, but Exiges aren't as bad as their LOTUS acronym would suggest.
Oh, and Exiges look the dogs danglies too.
Sure, a Porsche will be more reliable, but Exiges aren't as bad as their LOTUS acronym would suggest.
Oh, and Exiges look the dogs danglies too.
Not the 964RS.
It is even more of a track machine on the twisty bits than your 996GT2 - remember they made the 993RS *softer* after it, because of critiscms of the 964RS's uncompromised set-up. Although your GT2 is certainly a quicker car... just that the RS is set up for track use out of the box, whereas the 996GT2 is also meant for the road.
I have heard from people who track both that the 964RS holds its own against Exiges on circuits. Dunno about a specific one like Donington, but I've driven it and I'd only back off in the RS on the Craner Curves. An Exige wing would help there
I did a bit of research on the Exige before getting the RS, after initially liking them a lot. What I found out wasn't terribly good, and made the decision a bit easier re the Porsche. But still a fantastic car compared to the normal dross out there, and horses for courses etc. All IMHO!
Rgds
Domster
>> Edited by domster on Friday 6th September 18:17
It is even more of a track machine on the twisty bits than your 996GT2 - remember they made the 993RS *softer* after it, because of critiscms of the 964RS's uncompromised set-up. Although your GT2 is certainly a quicker car... just that the RS is set up for track use out of the box, whereas the 996GT2 is also meant for the road.
I have heard from people who track both that the 964RS holds its own against Exiges on circuits. Dunno about a specific one like Donington, but I've driven it and I'd only back off in the RS on the Craner Curves. An Exige wing would help there
I did a bit of research on the Exige before getting the RS, after initially liking them a lot. What I found out wasn't terribly good, and made the decision a bit easier re the Porsche. But still a fantastic car compared to the normal dross out there, and horses for courses etc. All IMHO!
Rgds
Domster
>> Edited by domster on Friday 6th September 18:17
Domster - you're spot on. Horses for courses is exactly right. Neither would be a bad choice.
Availability may also be an issue here. You can see lots of exiges for sale at any one time, althought they're still pretty exclusive on the road. 964RS's are pretty thin on the ground, in fact i've NEVER seen a right hand drive one for sale. As far as i'm concerned LHD is fine for track use, but if its a road car whats the point of all that horsepower if you can't see to overtake?
Availability may also be an issue here. You can see lots of exiges for sale at any one time, althought they're still pretty exclusive on the road. 964RS's are pretty thin on the ground, in fact i've NEVER seen a right hand drive one for sale. As far as i'm concerned LHD is fine for track use, but if its a road car whats the point of all that horsepower if you can't see to overtake?
Domster,
You don't know what handling is, mate.
Just wait until the bloated face of a 2 ton Sumo hoves into your rear view, lights angrily flashing, the driver all worked up because his right buttock needs a little less heat through the 20 stone lazee boy recliner that supports his ample frame...
Then, and only then my friend, will you know the numbers up.
And the number is most definately NOT, 993...
You have been warned.
You don't know what handling is, mate.
Just wait until the bloated face of a 2 ton Sumo hoves into your rear view, lights angrily flashing, the driver all worked up because his right buttock needs a little less heat through the 20 stone lazee boy recliner that supports his ample frame...
Then, and only then my friend, will you know the numbers up.
And the number is most definately NOT, 993...
You have been warned.
On the subject of 964 RS:
there is a special CUP version at ebay at the moment:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1764328121
£29k-ish seem quite fair for that condition
But colour, wheels and rear spoiler are not to my taste
there is a special CUP version at ebay at the moment:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1764328121
£29k-ish seem quite fair for that condition
But colour, wheels and rear spoiler are not to my taste
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