Babies/Children in 964/996

[SidewaysSi]

Thinking of buying a car which can be used more regularly during the weekend with the wife and 8 month old. Ideally want a 911, probably a 964 or 996 C2. Few questions:

- I want it to be our weekend family car for a few years so will my son realistically be comfortable? We currently use a MaxiCosi with my wife in the front (she is 5'8") which is fine in a 3 Series but assume we may struggle in a Porsche. Are there any other options and how will things work as he gets bigger?

- I love my cars raw and fun on road and this is replacing a modified S1 Lotus Elise. Happy to get a non-standard 911 but which will realistically be able to match the Lotus in the fun (on road accessibility, feel and slideability) stakes? I was thinking a tweaked 996 or 964? Or maybe an SC? The other alternative is an Alfa GT Junior. Or keep the Lotus of course and keep my modified E36 as the family machine.

Only have a double garage (plus driveway for 2 cars) and also a Caterham which I will probably keep.

Any thoughts /ideas?

[gopherboy]

I'm over 6'1 and on a long journey in my 996 I have to move my seat forwards slightly to make my 5 year old son comfortable.
My 10 year old daughter fits in the back behind the wife comfortably.
I'd say both my kids are above average height, less so for the wife.
We recently used the car for a long weekend away with all our luggage without any issues.

[braddo]

Definitely doable.

I didn't do a test fit of a baby seat in a 964 but I did sit in one and it looked as if there would be room for a maxi cosi behind a passenger of your wife's height.

I put seatbelts in the back of a 997 GT3, so essentially the same cabin as the 996. The bottom seat cushions in a Carrera are easily removed I believe (just velcro?), which gives a tad more room - lowering the rear-facing seat so that the front seat doesn't need to go so far forward.





A 7 year old sits behind me driving (5'11 but I like sitting quite close to the wheel).

Seatbelts (and indeed seats) are easily installed in 996.1, 996.2 and 997.1 GT3s.

[oddman]

SidewaysSi said:

Happy to get a non-standard 911 but which will realistically be able to match the Lotus in the fun (on road accessibility, feel and slideability) stakes?

Any thoughts /ideas?

Stock up on sick bags

My kids fitted in back of of my 993 no problem but even at about 3/10 they were getting car sick. I don't think it's just the motion, it can be a hot, dark, noisy place to be stuck in.

[jonny996]

As mentioned, on a 996 just remove seat back and pad from rear, 2 bolts & Velcro if you are using kids seat & it won't be a problem

[ishay]

My 7 year old has prefered the back of my 997s (a Carrera and a turbo) to the back of my e46 daily (since the age of 4). She likes being back there with the high sides and low floor (she can put her feet flat on the floor rather than dangling).

Never did the rear facing stage but wouldn't see an issue at all.

As mentioned I have the Velcro seat out. Partly for space but also because the seat sits better and the leather doesn't get dented.

[SidewaysSi]

Thanks all, much appreciated.

I do like a 996GT3 but an wary the limits are too high to enjoy.

Braddo-seems like you have had the Alfa, Elisee and GT3. How do they compare for on road fun?

[ispcarsurvey]

Another with a 997.1 GT3 with rear seat belts. My 4 year old prefers it in the back of the GT3 vs our c-class merc. Surprisingly spacious tbh.

[braddo]

SidewaysSi said:

Thanks all, much appreciated.

I do like a 996GT3 but an wary the limits are too high to enjoy.

Braddo-seems like you have had the Alfa, Elisee and GT3. How do they compare for on road fun?

Have smiled a couple of times at your thoughts of a TS 105, wondering how many readers would know what that is.

Upon reflection, I'd love to still have all 3, since they offer different things (cool classic vs lightweight vs road/track/continent crusher) but in driving terms they are peas in the same pod.

For me the Giulia GTVs could only bettered by the pre-IB 911s for that all-round combo of 2+2 practicality, light weight, driving dynamics, looks/image and modern performance potential. They work perfectly well in today's world - pre-73 is no worse for rust than any other car; brakes don't fade, they don't overheat, you can thrash them all day long be it motorway/city/track.

The Guilia Alfas don't need much to make them very quick in every respect, but like any old car the costs add up. So instead of making my Alfa quick, I bought the Elise.

Trying to cut the babble...
Alfa - with very minor suspension tweaks, they have tactility and fun to match or exceed an Elise but only 130hp/ton, unless you spend an Elise on upgrades to say 180hp/ton

Elise - I had a fairly standard 135Sport, lovely road car with accessible limits (still fun on track but not hard core at all) and an easy 190hp/ton compared to modding an old car

GT3 - fking epic thing, with back seats(!) and 300hp/ton (not him thankfully) so a big step up in performance but still nice tactility. Two gripes about tactility - DBW throttle annoyingly dull for H&T compared to the Alfa; variable ratio steering rack seems a little less 'natural' but the overall feel of the hydraulic rack is lovely. My car had P-zero rosso road tyres when i bought it and in hindsight I think having 'crappy' road tyres like this is probably key to the car being enjoyable on the road at reasonable speeds. It's now on Cup2s which I prefer for the occasional track day, but one has to be very mindful of when performance should be used on public roads.

An early 996 or a 964 could be made to hit a compromise among all 3.

[SidewaysSi]

Excellent and thanks for your write up. Is insurance an issue putting rear belts in a GT3?

My Elise is a modified Sport 160 (Nitrons, faster rack, brakes, exhaust etc). Drove it yesterday after a few weeks in the garage and loved it again. Stunning steering feel and agility. The limits are quite high though and it doesn't have the low speed playfulness of my Caterham which is happy to go sideways at 20mph!

I do love the 105 cars - look lovely, practical and with a TS probably has the right power/grip ratio. Sounds like they are fairly reliable too?

With a rough budget of £50k, I was thinking a modified SC - non assisted steering and lightweight may be the key on road so I don't miss the Elise too much.

The problem is getting any meaningful seat time in the cars but a decision will need to be made soon..

[braddo]

Insurance was a nice surprise for the rear seat belts - I use Mannings, I just let them know and they said no problem.

The 105s are good for reliability. Everything is robust. Reliability issues tend to come from modifying going wrong (e.g. newly built engines having issues) or age/neglect, things like old wiring and earth connections leading to erratic performance. I read that the dual servo brake systems can sometimes have issues that are hard to hunt down but there are single and servo-less options out there.

At a guess something like £40k would get a 105 in A1 condition plus a TS conversion. Classicalfa's annual track day at Goodwood would be a good opportunity to see lots of 105s together and speak to owners etc but it was about a month ago! Maybe go and see Alfaholics and you could probably get a drive of one of their cars.

Having 2 sets of wheels is probably a good idea in these cases - a road set with narrowest, highest profile possible, and a track set.

[AlasdairB10]

I've got a 996 C2, an M5 and 545i estate and the kids all prefer sitting in the back of the Porsche. Two rear seats fit easily although the three year old has to have his legs beside my seat if he wants to stretch out. I'm 6 foot 4... The kids fight about sitting in the front seat if Mummy isn't onboard.

Just make sure you have car seats that have fairly rigid base hinges. We've got Cybex seats and the base move forward a little which reduces room. Our old maxi cosy baby seat was a bit wide. A friend has recaros and they are perfect in the back of his GT3. There are often Porsche baby seats up for sale second hand or check with your OPC as they aren't that expensive.

[chip*]

braddo said:

Definitely doable.



I put seatbelts in the back of a 997 GT3, so essentially the same cabin as the 996. The bottom seat cushions in a Carrera are easily removed I believe (just velcro?), which gives a tad more room - lowering the rear-facing seat so that the front seat doesn't need to go so far forward.


Seatbelts (and indeed seats) are easily installed in 996.1, 996.2 and 997.1 GT3s.

Do you mind sharing who you used to fit the rear seatbelts as I plan to do the same for mine too (996.2)?

Thanks.

[braddo]

I used quickfitsbs, based in NW London. I wanted it done quickly but in hindsight I'd recommend sourcing some seatbelts and the trim pieces near the reels from a Carrera, and then give those over to install.