CSL or GT3 the age old question
Discussion
Hello all
im having worrying thoughts about 911's again and just wanted to run some of my man maths past you to see if im being a silly sod or if its something I should run with as it might be my last chance for a while.
im getting married this weekend and after the ball busting out lay this has cost im weighing up my car options for the future and im sure kids will be knocking at my door in the next few years and then all obscene purchases like fast cars are out of the window for about 15-20 years and my brother once told me get your toys while you can!!!
so here's my thoughts
I could sell the CSL "with a heavy heart" and with the help from HSBC get my self into a 997 GT3.1 fine
but my question to you in the know is do you think with the whole brexit thing and all that the bottom is going to fall out of all this and my £80k GT3 will be worth £50k in the not to far future or are these machines still sought-after enough that they are going to hold up no matter what "within reason" happens?
or do you see cars like the CSL and GT3 only ever appreciate.
it has never really bothered me regarding the CSL as I bought it at it lowest point and have been lucky enough to ride the wave of appreciation
although it will hurt to buy a car at the top of its wave of appreciation if it had not been for the CSL raise I could never have afforded something like a GT3.
I know its not all about money but as mentioned I feel lucky enough to have owned a car that has risen in value and I don't want to blow it.
answers on a postcard please
jon
im having worrying thoughts about 911's again and just wanted to run some of my man maths past you to see if im being a silly sod or if its something I should run with as it might be my last chance for a while.
im getting married this weekend and after the ball busting out lay this has cost im weighing up my car options for the future and im sure kids will be knocking at my door in the next few years and then all obscene purchases like fast cars are out of the window for about 15-20 years and my brother once told me get your toys while you can!!!
so here's my thoughts
I could sell the CSL "with a heavy heart" and with the help from HSBC get my self into a 997 GT3.1 fine
but my question to you in the know is do you think with the whole brexit thing and all that the bottom is going to fall out of all this and my £80k GT3 will be worth £50k in the not to far future or are these machines still sought-after enough that they are going to hold up no matter what "within reason" happens?
or do you see cars like the CSL and GT3 only ever appreciate.
it has never really bothered me regarding the CSL as I bought it at it lowest point and have been lucky enough to ride the wave of appreciation
although it will hurt to buy a car at the top of its wave of appreciation if it had not been for the CSL raise I could never have afforded something like a GT3.
I know its not all about money but as mentioned I feel lucky enough to have owned a car that has risen in value and I don't want to blow it.
answers on a postcard please
jon
In the summer I sold my CSL and bought a 997.1 GT3 Clubsport.
I briefly had a Cayman R at the same as the CSL for a few months, it was the intended CSL replacement, but it was just not special enough when compared to the CSL.
So man maths kicked in and suddenly I had the GT3, and it's the only thing that feels worthy of the step up in price compared to the CSL. Compared to most 'special' cars the CSL is still great value, even at today's prices.
My decision was now or never, I can look back and say I took the opportunity to own a GT3, even if it was short lived, and even if I lost out a bit. It's such a stunning car I'm so glad I did.
I briefly had a Cayman R at the same as the CSL for a few months, it was the intended CSL replacement, but it was just not special enough when compared to the CSL.
So man maths kicked in and suddenly I had the GT3, and it's the only thing that feels worthy of the step up in price compared to the CSL. Compared to most 'special' cars the CSL is still great value, even at today's prices.
My decision was now or never, I can look back and say I took the opportunity to own a GT3, even if it was short lived, and even if I lost out a bit. It's such a stunning car I'm so glad I did.
If the OP buys privately at this time of year then there's probably a good deal to be had. Also, buying privately saves on the dealer margin and thus less downside. Having said that, whilst I don't see prices rocketing neither do I see them dropping more than 10k which isn't bad for a car. Clearly avoiding a big buy/sell spread helps here.
The CSL is a truly wonderful and very special BMW. However a GT3 (any GT3) is a very special car.
And truly amazing though the CSL is (that noise, oh that noise) on the odd occasion you may see a GT3 (or in your case a 997 GT3) driving past you, can you truly say, hand on heart you wouldn't feel the smallest hint of regret that you'd not bought the car from Stuttgart ..... ?
And truly amazing though the CSL is (that noise, oh that noise) on the odd occasion you may see a GT3 (or in your case a 997 GT3) driving past you, can you truly say, hand on heart you wouldn't feel the smallest hint of regret that you'd not bought the car from Stuttgart ..... ?
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 8th November 00:13
I went to buy a GT3 back in 2007 ish on the way I tried a CSL and bought it there and then, an amazing CAR and the induction noise is the best sound ever.
but there is always a GT3 niggle so I bought on of those also 2 years later.
Some times the wanting is better than the owning, every body wants a GT3 but most have so many owners due to the ownership never being what they thought it was going to be !
Some people love them, most people lust after one, but I would say 70% owners sell em on quick and hence you see cars with 7 or 8 owners.
There is a strong GT3 following here so you get a bias review.
YOU only know if you love the GT3 or not after owning one, I even get tempted back some times, but think all the things I dislike about them will still be the same !
Only CSL down sides were RTAB and brakes which were easy fixes.
They look expensive atm though esp if you want one in the 20k miles area and one can easy swallow £10k refresh if not more.
997.2 is more usable with lift but again £115k atm don't seem like value.
Have you thought about a GT4 ? they make a better road car than the 997 GT3 have warranty, are new etc etc.
I would take a GT4 over a CSL and a 997.1 GT3 just because those 2 cars are a bit too old for my liking, plus been there done it on 2 outstanding examples.
but there is always a GT3 niggle so I bought on of those also 2 years later.
Some times the wanting is better than the owning, every body wants a GT3 but most have so many owners due to the ownership never being what they thought it was going to be !
Some people love them, most people lust after one, but I would say 70% owners sell em on quick and hence you see cars with 7 or 8 owners.
There is a strong GT3 following here so you get a bias review.
YOU only know if you love the GT3 or not after owning one, I even get tempted back some times, but think all the things I dislike about them will still be the same !
Only CSL down sides were RTAB and brakes which were easy fixes.
They look expensive atm though esp if you want one in the 20k miles area and one can easy swallow £10k refresh if not more.
997.2 is more usable with lift but again £115k atm don't seem like value.
Have you thought about a GT4 ? they make a better road car than the 997 GT3 have warranty, are new etc etc.
I would take a GT4 over a CSL and a 997.1 GT3 just because those 2 cars are a bit too old for my liking, plus been there done it on 2 outstanding examples.
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 8th November 09:19
CSL is a special car with a special engine. If it wasn't for the fact it had the SMG box I think they'd be more money. Best car BMW has made since the E30 M3 and I doubt we'll see the like again...I don't think the last two "GTS" variants of the M3/M4 are as special, perhaps because the CSL is based on a car that was head and shoulders above its rivals at the time.. On which note Romans had two current M4 GTS's for sale for at £165k...one of which has apparently just sold! Personally I can't see that car being worth £100k more than an M3 CSL in ten years time.
I really enjoyed my CSL, but i had one a good 6 years between the GT3 so it's a bit hard to compare.
I never had a problem with the SMG (although a sensor did go 2 hours after buying it!), but i guess as the years continue that gearbox arrangement will always count against it - especially as the GT3's manual is really enjoyable to use. It's a bit notchy, but heel and toe is so easy and satisfying.
Driving wise the CSL was really easy and flattering to drive. It may be not quite as fast as a well driven GT3 round track but it was a lot of fun.
As special as the CSL is though, i stil viewed the GT3 as moving up the ladder. Let's face it, it is THE enthusiasts car - it's almost a stereotype.
Of course, the real answer to all this is you need both. Oh, and an NSX-R.
I never had a problem with the SMG (although a sensor did go 2 hours after buying it!), but i guess as the years continue that gearbox arrangement will always count against it - especially as the GT3's manual is really enjoyable to use. It's a bit notchy, but heel and toe is so easy and satisfying.
Driving wise the CSL was really easy and flattering to drive. It may be not quite as fast as a well driven GT3 round track but it was a lot of fun.
As special as the CSL is though, i stil viewed the GT3 as moving up the ladder. Let's face it, it is THE enthusiasts car - it's almost a stereotype.
Of course, the real answer to all this is you need both. Oh, and an NSX-R.
CSL is super special. Easily the best ///M car BMW has ever made (M1 excepted) yet a 996.1 GT3 is even better, while a 997.1 would be on a different level all together. And I speak as a serial ///M owner and aficionado. I was actually thinking of getting a LHD CSL back in 2014, then realised they were more expensive than LHD GT3s hence I jumped in a GT3. Never looked back...
I use my CSL exclusively as a track car. It's fab for 1) induction noise 2) balanced FR chassis
GT3 is special. mezger/ steering feel/ brakes/ rear engine etc need upgraded diff for track work (note to self)
GT4 is more contemporary and reflects in ride quality, grip and has the best brakes/slickest gear change by far. Interior is also a massive step up. If you go on trips + a few trackdays a year, it is unbelievable as an only car + runabout. Only downside is engine is not so special.
But have you seen the turbos that are coming?
Investment only or investment + Enjoyment
based on this you can decide.
GT3 is special. mezger/ steering feel/ brakes/ rear engine etc need upgraded diff for track work (note to self)
GT4 is more contemporary and reflects in ride quality, grip and has the best brakes/slickest gear change by far. Interior is also a massive step up. If you go on trips + a few trackdays a year, it is unbelievable as an only car + runabout. Only downside is engine is not so special.
But have you seen the turbos that are coming?
Investment only or investment + Enjoyment
based on this you can decide.
u have a few generations of Gt3 to choose from. but for a great FR chassis accompanied by a great engine, I don't think we have many of those.
let's see... aston v8 - too heavy, more GT car
Gt86 - slow, mundane engine
Ferrari - different price bracket and more GT
mazda rx7 - reliability + engine
I'm struggling here.
Gt3 is still the best but there's something to be said for BMW's best production car
let's see... aston v8 - too heavy, more GT car
Gt86 - slow, mundane engine
Ferrari - different price bracket and more GT
mazda rx7 - reliability + engine
I'm struggling here.
Gt3 is still the best but there's something to be said for BMW's best production car
I can see the fascination in a CSL but from a driver's perspective the GT3 is - in my opinion - in a different league in almost every aspect. It is also the more demanding, more rewarding drive if you ask me.
If you don't track your cars at all however, the difference may not be as dramatic as I make it out to be.
If you don't track your cars at all however, the difference may not be as dramatic as I make it out to be.
Ive had a few BMW's and have always wanted a csl be it the e9 or e46, 1.5 years ago a nice e46 csl 39k miles black example was for sale in the high 30's, which I thought was too expensive.... hindsight. Any how earlier this year went to see an evo 2 integrale, which was for sale for 55k lovely tidy car, but this is where my man maths kicked in.
around 65k gets you a tidy csl, and another 15k gets you a low miles 7.1 gt3.... so after a few pints and man maths calculations later gt3 it was. I've had it since July and absolutely love it. I would love to have a csl, but will not sell the gt3 to give one a go, i'll just have to have a few more pints and concoct another cunning plan to have one in addition, so far failing.
as to depreciation if I loose 20k in 4 years on the gt3 that's 5k a year, yeh its a shame... but its a hobby. how much do people spend on holidays etc. not bothered will cross that bridge then and in the meantime enjoy life
around 65k gets you a tidy csl, and another 15k gets you a low miles 7.1 gt3.... so after a few pints and man maths calculations later gt3 it was. I've had it since July and absolutely love it. I would love to have a csl, but will not sell the gt3 to give one a go, i'll just have to have a few more pints and concoct another cunning plan to have one in addition, so far failing.
as to depreciation if I loose 20k in 4 years on the gt3 that's 5k a year, yeh its a shame... but its a hobby. how much do people spend on holidays etc. not bothered will cross that bridge then and in the meantime enjoy life
Just spotted this 'cheap' 997.1 GT3. I'd be getting it inspected today if i had the money!
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
hondansx said:
Just spotted this 'cheap' 997.1 GT3. I'd be getting it inspected today if i had the money!
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
yep it does make you wonder why put it up well below market prices.http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
some times pricing a car too cheap makes your brain ask questions why ?
looks great though and those seats are £20k GT seats and a rare option.
If it checks out that's a great buy on a car some say is the best GT3 made.
I know what you are saying but as a bit of a reality it took me almost 3 months to sell my 'in demand' 991 GT3. It was the cheapest and lowest for its spec in the country and i eventually took an offer.
So, as with mine, most of these cars on SORN are just sitting around for ages (or simply removed and relisted with new photos) and certainly aren't getting the money they are being put up for.
On that basis, you could argue the guy selling this 997.1 GT3 (not slightly unoriginal with RS wing and painted wheels) is just aware of the above situation and wants to cut the BS and get it sold.
So, as with mine, most of these cars on SORN are just sitting around for ages (or simply removed and relisted with new photos) and certainly aren't getting the money they are being put up for.
On that basis, you could argue the guy selling this 997.1 GT3 (not slightly unoriginal with RS wing and painted wheels) is just aware of the above situation and wants to cut the BS and get it sold.
Porsche911R said:
yep it does make you wonder why put it up well below market prices.
some times pricing a car too cheap makes your brain ask questions why ?
looks great though and those seats are £20k GT seats and a rare option.
If it checks out that's a great buy on a car some say is the best GT3 made.
I think that car has been up for sale for quite some time - can't remember what the previous price was, think it was around £80k. Maybe the owner just wants it gone.some times pricing a car too cheap makes your brain ask questions why ?
looks great though and those seats are £20k GT seats and a rare option.
If it checks out that's a great buy on a car some say is the best GT3 made.
Dare I ask... Is the white GT3 the "Charles of Windsor" car from many years ago? I remember that was white with an RS-style spoiler and lightweight seats. Assuming it isn't, it looks like a very nice buy for someone.
Nope - I take that back, that was a white car with a white cage, this looks like the spec I've always hankered after which was comfort but with leather and alcantara buckets. Anyone want to buy a nice 996 Turbo S? :-)
Nope - I take that back, that was a white car with a white cage, this looks like the spec I've always hankered after which was comfort but with leather and alcantara buckets. Anyone want to buy a nice 996 Turbo S? :-)
Edited by pete on Wednesday 9th November 10:42
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