I need help please. about idle when cold.
Discussion
My car has this problem, a 2013 rapide with 22k miles. The idle when cold (outside temperature 20 degrees celcius) was very high like 1100, for one minute and it slowly goes down to 900, after 1 minute and 30 seconds or more.
when i have it at the beginning (3 weeks ago) the idle when cold was at 700 in maybe 10-20 seconds maximum.
First the dealer said the car had a problem now it says its all fine but nothing has changed. he said all cars have different settings, but I am reffering to my car, same exact car who used to idle when cold at 700 in 20 seconds, and now its not the case anymore.
Could you please check how is your idle when cold and how much time it takes to get to 800 or 700?
so I can compare, do you think it is normal a car when you started it first is at 1100 for one minute and takes 1 minutes and 30 second so more to reach 800-900?
I suspect this could lead to a new problem soon again more important, where I will be left alone without warranty.
the new oil filler cap may have resolved the acceleration when cold (not sure since it was happening one morning and not the morning after, so one trial is not enough to know if it is resolved "acceleration" when cold due to the oil filler cap) but the idle is still way too high I think. Dealer said the new oil filler cap is exactly the same as old.
They said we could compare to a db9 2010 they had there.
I red about the cats problem with the vantage v12, and I red an air leak could affect the catalitic converters, and i noticed cars smell much stronger when i start the engine.
I also try to stick some heavy duty US tape, around some parts of the engine, like the idle valves, and i could not stick nothing there, (not even a mm) is it the oil fumes escaping from the oil filler cap during these 1200 km or is it normal.
I will go and get the car back later today what ever happenned, so I can try with another dealership or sell the car.
when i have it at the beginning (3 weeks ago) the idle when cold was at 700 in maybe 10-20 seconds maximum.
First the dealer said the car had a problem now it says its all fine but nothing has changed. he said all cars have different settings, but I am reffering to my car, same exact car who used to idle when cold at 700 in 20 seconds, and now its not the case anymore.
Could you please check how is your idle when cold and how much time it takes to get to 800 or 700?
so I can compare, do you think it is normal a car when you started it first is at 1100 for one minute and takes 1 minutes and 30 second so more to reach 800-900?
I suspect this could lead to a new problem soon again more important, where I will be left alone without warranty.
the new oil filler cap may have resolved the acceleration when cold (not sure since it was happening one morning and not the morning after, so one trial is not enough to know if it is resolved "acceleration" when cold due to the oil filler cap) but the idle is still way too high I think. Dealer said the new oil filler cap is exactly the same as old.
They said we could compare to a db9 2010 they had there.
I red about the cats problem with the vantage v12, and I red an air leak could affect the catalitic converters, and i noticed cars smell much stronger when i start the engine.
I also try to stick some heavy duty US tape, around some parts of the engine, like the idle valves, and i could not stick nothing there, (not even a mm) is it the oil fumes escaping from the oil filler cap during these 1200 km or is it normal.
I will go and get the car back later today what ever happenned, so I can try with another dealership or sell the car.
Edited by pete1212 on Thursday 21st April 11:35
Edited by pete1212 on Thursday 21st April 12:29
It sounds as if you have either an air leak or a fault with the PCV venting system. It will start with a high idle speed but not that high, and then drop down as it warms up. Look in your manual to give you an indication of the correct idle speed when warm.
You could also try cleaning the throttle bodies in case they are sticking from oil contamination.
You could also try cleaning the throttle bodies in case they are sticking from oil contamination.
8Tech said:
It sounds as if you have either an air leak or a fault with the PCV venting system. It will start with a high idle speed but not that high, and then drop down as it warms up. Look in your manual to give you an indication of the correct idle speed when warm.
You could also try cleaning the throttle bodies in case they are sticking from oil contamination.
thank you, dealer said it was something very small disturbing but it will not happen again...all is fine with the car nowYou could also try cleaning the throttle bodies in case they are sticking from oil contamination.
No error code with OBD said dealer AML Valencia, On 3 occasions the dealer had the car 9 days, they removed and put back /change the air filter, ( but it was done with annual service 15 days ago) nothing else was ever changed. No oxygen sensor no valves, no mass air flow, nothing was updated, they said its clean, but clean does not mean it works well. disapointed at bringing the car again and when i think than AML UK warranty is helping them.
this morning it almost stalled after starting and then it re accelerate like this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkfW...ature=youtu...
Is it a long job changing the spark plugs? why the warranty does not send an idle valve, mass air flow and oxygen sensor for the dealer to try the first time?
this morning it almost stalled after starting and then it re accelerate like this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkfW...ature=youtu...
Is it a long job changing the spark plugs? why the warranty does not send an idle valve, mass air flow and oxygen sensor for the dealer to try the first time?
Edited by pete1212 on Sunday 24th April 20:36
Yes, it is a good 3+ hour job changing the plugs and you will also need 24 injector seals and a pair of inlet manifold gaskets, around £300.00 in parts in addition to the cost of the plugs.
I do not think it will be the plugs, they are longlife and only a third of the way through their expected lifespan. I would be more suspicious of a coil, but changing those on a guess is an expensive way of checking them.
I would think a coil pack breaking down would at least bring a fault code into the memory to be read.
Your youtube link did not work so unfortunately, thats all I can suggest from your description.
I do not think it will be the plugs, they are longlife and only a third of the way through their expected lifespan. I would be more suspicious of a coil, but changing those on a guess is an expensive way of checking them.
I would think a coil pack breaking down would at least bring a fault code into the memory to be read.
Your youtube link did not work so unfortunately, thats all I can suggest from your description.
8Tech said:
Yes, it is a good 3+ hour job changing the plugs and you will also need 24 injector seals and a pair of inlet manifold gaskets, around £300.00 in parts in addition to the cost of the plugs.
I do not think it will be the plugs, they are longlife and only a third of the way through their expected lifespan. I would be more suspicious of a coil, but changing those on a guess is an expensive way of checking them.
I would think a coil pack breaking down would at least bring a fault code into the memory to be read.
Your youtube link did not work so unfortunately, thats all I can suggest from your description.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkfW3TutJoE&feature=youtu.beI do not think it will be the plugs, they are longlife and only a third of the way through their expected lifespan. I would be more suspicious of a coil, but changing those on a guess is an expensive way of checking them.
I would think a coil pack breaking down would at least bring a fault code into the memory to be read.
Your youtube link did not work so unfortunately, thats all I can suggest from your description.
here it is sorry and thank you
pete1212 said:
with the obdII they checked the cylinder and coils and there is nothing bad there. it could still be the case, one bad coil you think?That sounds more like an air leak than a misfire.
To explain.....
The car has an electronically controlled idle speed so that as engine load changes, such as power steering on full lock, heavy electrical use or air con, the throttle is fettled to keep the idle speed as specified.
Surging is common because if there is something altering faster than the electronics can physically keep up with, the throttle is being opened and closed continuously in an attenpt to find the correct speed.
A single cylinder misfire will clearly reduce output by 1/12th, so if this is a smooth cut, ie totally failed coil/plug, then the car can easily compensate by feathering the throttle a little more to bring the speed up. If it is a random misfire, the car will hunt, trying to compensate for a continually altering requirement.
Similar case with an air leak. This is usually a hose or connection, usually rubber or gasket, that will alter with engine movement and temperature, so the car will again keep trying to compensate for a moving "target". This is due to the mixture continually changing in an attempt to set fuel mixture control correct as seen by the O2 sensors.
The other common cause for this "hunting" or "surging", is an innaccurate seal on the throttle butterfly caused by carbon, or in the case of our V12 Astons, oil fouling of the throttle body. As this is the esalest to check and cure, I would take a look here first before jumping in on the coils and plugs.
Hope that helps.
To explain.....
The car has an electronically controlled idle speed so that as engine load changes, such as power steering on full lock, heavy electrical use or air con, the throttle is fettled to keep the idle speed as specified.
Surging is common because if there is something altering faster than the electronics can physically keep up with, the throttle is being opened and closed continuously in an attenpt to find the correct speed.
A single cylinder misfire will clearly reduce output by 1/12th, so if this is a smooth cut, ie totally failed coil/plug, then the car can easily compensate by feathering the throttle a little more to bring the speed up. If it is a random misfire, the car will hunt, trying to compensate for a continually altering requirement.
Similar case with an air leak. This is usually a hose or connection, usually rubber or gasket, that will alter with engine movement and temperature, so the car will again keep trying to compensate for a moving "target". This is due to the mixture continually changing in an attempt to set fuel mixture control correct as seen by the O2 sensors.
The other common cause for this "hunting" or "surging", is an innaccurate seal on the throttle butterfly caused by carbon, or in the case of our V12 Astons, oil fouling of the throttle body. As this is the esalest to check and cure, I would take a look here first before jumping in on the coils and plugs.
Hope that helps.
8Tech said:
That sounds more like an air leak than a misfire.
To explain.....
The car has an electronically controlled idle speed so that as engine load changes, such as power steering on full lock, heavy electrical use or air con, the throttle is fettled to keep the idle speed as specified.
Surging is common because if there is something altering faster than the electronics can physically keep up with, the throttle is being opened and closed continuously in an attenpt to find the correct speed.
A single cylinder misfire will clearly reduce output by 1/12th, so if this is a smooth cut, ie totally failed coil/plug, then the car can easily compensate by feathering the throttle a little more to bring the speed up. If it is a random misfire, the car will hunt, trying to compensate for a continually altering requirement.
Similar case with an air leak. This is usually a hose or connection, usually rubber or gasket, that will alter with engine movement and temperature, so the car will again keep trying to compensate for a moving "target". This is due to the mixture continually changing in an attempt to set fuel mixture control correct as seen by the O2 sensors.
The other common cause for this "hunting" or "surging", is an innaccurate seal on the throttle butterfly caused by carbon, or in the case of our V12 Astons, oil fouling of the throttle body. As this is the esalest to check and cure, I would take a look here first before jumping in on the coils and plugs.
Hope that helps.
they said they already cleaned the throttle body, do you think a coil could be bad even if with the OBDII says all is fine? To explain.....
The car has an electronically controlled idle speed so that as engine load changes, such as power steering on full lock, heavy electrical use or air con, the throttle is fettled to keep the idle speed as specified.
Surging is common because if there is something altering faster than the electronics can physically keep up with, the throttle is being opened and closed continuously in an attenpt to find the correct speed.
A single cylinder misfire will clearly reduce output by 1/12th, so if this is a smooth cut, ie totally failed coil/plug, then the car can easily compensate by feathering the throttle a little more to bring the speed up. If it is a random misfire, the car will hunt, trying to compensate for a continually altering requirement.
Similar case with an air leak. This is usually a hose or connection, usually rubber or gasket, that will alter with engine movement and temperature, so the car will again keep trying to compensate for a moving "target". This is due to the mixture continually changing in an attempt to set fuel mixture control correct as seen by the O2 sensors.
The other common cause for this "hunting" or "surging", is an innaccurate seal on the throttle butterfly caused by carbon, or in the case of our V12 Astons, oil fouling of the throttle body. As this is the esalest to check and cure, I would take a look here first before jumping in on the coils and plugs.
Hope that helps.
the car started accelerating like this after they got the car the first time and did some reprogramation? or touched something close to fix it without fixing it,. I fist brought it in for what I thauht was "taking a long time to idle at 750" , but when i got it back it was accelerating like this. you think a reprogramation could do this?
They did a throttle clean up. it was clean. they sprayed some brake fluid around the engine to see if it accelerate but it was warm.
then they perfom an exhaust test and maybe? not sure, they find out it was different left from right? not sure. when i called AML uk warranty 5 days ago they talked about a transmission issue, and now when the car does this, I can clearly hear under the car, clac clac clac like somewhere around the transmission.
Edited by pete1212 on Tuesday 26th April 11:37
Edited by pete1212 on Tuesday 26th April 11:37
pete1212 said:
they said they already cleaned the throttle body, do you think a coil could be bad even if with the OBDII says all is fine?
the car started accelerating like this after they got the car the first time and did some reprogramation? or touched something close to fix it without fixing it,. I fist brought it in for what I thauht was "taking a long time to idle at 750" , but when i got it back it was accelerating like this. you think a reprogramation could do this?
They did a throttle clean up. it was clean. they sprayed some brake fluid around the engine to see if it accelerate but it was warm.
then they perfom an exhaust test and maybe? not sure, they find out it was different left from right? not sure. when i called AML uk warranty 5 days ago they talked about a transmission issue, and now when the car does this, I can clearly hear under the car, clac clac clac like somewhere around the transmission.
Sorry but I cannot really help much more remotely, away from the car.the car started accelerating like this after they got the car the first time and did some reprogramation? or touched something close to fix it without fixing it,. I fist brought it in for what I thauht was "taking a long time to idle at 750" , but when i got it back it was accelerating like this. you think a reprogramation could do this?
They did a throttle clean up. it was clean. they sprayed some brake fluid around the engine to see if it accelerate but it was warm.
then they perfom an exhaust test and maybe? not sure, they find out it was different left from right? not sure. when i called AML uk warranty 5 days ago they talked about a transmission issue, and now when the car does this, I can clearly hear under the car, clac clac clac like somewhere around the transmission.
Hopefully they sprayed brake CLEANER and not brake FLUID to check for air leaks but a far more professional way is with a proper diagnostics smoke machine which lightly pressurizes the intake system with........you guessed it........smoke.
The transmission is likely to be clattering with an irratic idle anyway.
OBD2 will pick up a regular misfire and throw a check engine light, but not a minor misfire for a second or two.
If they reprogrammed the ECU and made it worse, or it was not as bad before, I would take it back and insist they fix it.
8Tech said:
Sorry but I cannot really help much more remotely, away from the car.
Hopefully they sprayed brake CLEANER and not brake FLUID to check for air leaks but a far more professional way is with a proper diagnostics smoke machine which lightly pressurizes the intake system with........you guessed it........smoke.
The transmission is likely to be clattering with an irratic idle anyway.
OBD2 will pick up a regular misfire and throw a check engine light, but not a minor misfire for a second or two.
If they reprogrammed the ECU and made it worse, or it was not as bad before, I would take it back and insist they fix it.
They do not have the proper tool, I told them about the machine to inject smoke, they looked at me like...yes it was brake cleaning fluid.Hopefully they sprayed brake CLEANER and not brake FLUID to check for air leaks but a far more professional way is with a proper diagnostics smoke machine which lightly pressurizes the intake system with........you guessed it........smoke.
The transmission is likely to be clattering with an irratic idle anyway.
OBD2 will pick up a regular misfire and throw a check engine light, but not a minor misfire for a second or two.
If they reprogrammed the ECU and made it worse, or it was not as bad before, I would take it back and insist they fix it.
thnaks about the OBDII not detecting a small misfire. I think they have everything for a wrong diagnostic, I am thinking getting a 5 liter xkr, i regret selling my xkr, I regret purchasing this car. I had jaguars for 16 years never i ha a engine problem like this and i drove 2000km this rapide and it happenned, they stop the atmospheric, i understand why.
Edited by pete1212 on Wednesday 27th April 10:02
paulrog1 said:
What's the problem with your Vanquish?
For the first 5mins when cold the engine is rough (sometimes almost like stalling). 2 months ago I have replaced all 12 x plugs, injectors, coils (OEM new) since 2 cylinders were misfiring after the car was unused for … last 2 years. 24kkm on the clock. Does the engine idle rough when warm? Plus did this problem start after the new coils/plugs were installed? Did the garage fit new manifold gaskets?
My guess is an air leak from the inlet manifolds gaskets, common issue.
I would recommend checking any fault codes, try to look at the long term fuelling trims on both primary and secondary banks, if there is a vacuum leak the fueling trims will be out as the car is trying to get to lambda 1.
I would carry out a vacuum smoke test on both inlet manifolds.
My guess is an air leak from the inlet manifolds gaskets, common issue.
I would recommend checking any fault codes, try to look at the long term fuelling trims on both primary and secondary banks, if there is a vacuum leak the fueling trims will be out as the car is trying to get to lambda 1.
I would carry out a vacuum smoke test on both inlet manifolds.
Edited by paulrog1 on Monday 5th August 16:49
chrzesm said:
For the first 5mins when cold the engine is rough (sometimes almost like stalling). 2 months ago I have replaced all 12 x plugs, injectors, coils (OEM new) since 2 cylinders were misfiring after the car was unused for … last 2 years. 24kkm on the clock.
Two year old fuel in the tank will not be helpful to clean running. Hopfully you have run it down and refilled with fresh petrol.Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff