Help from career types/IT monkeys
Discussion
Hi,
I currently work on a helpdesk, computer support. This is not what I want to b doing, I need something that is more of a challenge, will earn me more money, and is a real career.
Now, seeing as at some stage I want to get into IT consulting, is there any point trying to work my way through (given the experience I get here it seems unlikely). Or should I just bite the bullet and go back to uni and do a Computation degree. I am guaranteed a place at UMIST on a computation course next year if I want it. Seeing as I want a career in IT, would you say that is the best option? UMIST is ranked very highly for computing BTW.
Cheers for any advice,
John
PS The main reason for needing a better job is the way the Tuscans keep looking at me. Oh yeah, and to stop me being bored pooless
I currently work on a helpdesk, computer support. This is not what I want to b doing, I need something that is more of a challenge, will earn me more money, and is a real career.
Now, seeing as at some stage I want to get into IT consulting, is there any point trying to work my way through (given the experience I get here it seems unlikely). Or should I just bite the bullet and go back to uni and do a Computation degree. I am guaranteed a place at UMIST on a computation course next year if I want it. Seeing as I want a career in IT, would you say that is the best option? UMIST is ranked very highly for computing BTW.
Cheers for any advice,
John
PS The main reason for needing a better job is the way the Tuscans keep looking at me. Oh yeah, and to stop me being bored pooless
Project manager type jobs really. I think I could probably get up to system engineer by working through the cogs. I know people who have done the same degree and they all have nice IT jobs now, two of them own their own company. I just feel like I'm wasting my life doing what I'm doing at the moment.
John, having spent 10 years in IT working my way up from the bottom, I'd say (rather biased though) that there really is no substitute for experience. Get your degree if it means so much to you, but there's plenty of blokes in IT Consultancy who do not possess any higher education qualification, but hold their own among their peer group simply because they've been there, and done it.
Only MHO, of course.
Only MHO, of course.
I would definitely recommend getting the degree. Its a long old wait is four years and the money you'll have during it is pathetic BUT...
You *will* learn stuff.
It will assist you in getting positions for about 5-6 years. After that its what you did in your last job...
Remember this - early career makes ALL the difference later on. The only way to change your path after is to either totally change careers or to undertake a course e.g. a degree or an MBA or an MSc or whatever. So if you've been on a helpdesk for a while then a degree is a great way of getting out of it.
Besides. The experience of doing one is not to be missed....
You *will* learn stuff.
It will assist you in getting positions for about 5-6 years. After that its what you did in your last job...
Remember this - early career makes ALL the difference later on. The only way to change your path after is to either totally change careers or to undertake a course e.g. a degree or an MBA or an MSc or whatever. So if you've been on a helpdesk for a while then a degree is a great way of getting out of it.
Besides. The experience of doing one is not to be missed....
Hi,
As has already been mentioned on other threads the IT job market is pretty crap so Uni might be an option, but then how long is the course, does it have a placement on it?
What sort of consultancy are you aiming for? IT consultants fall into a number of categories.
a) Those who work for the big boys who produce lots of paper but fail to deliver a working solution...ever.
b) Contractors who think they are consultants but are not (no offense to all you contract scum :-))
c) Old blokes who've been there done that, for everything. They are very good at pointing out the obvious and sometimes very good value (and sometimes not).
The best consultants I've worked with are those that have a very good understanding of their subject but also are able to get a very good understanding of their customer and their problems (which the customer won't know the half of). They can then translate this into English and come up with a sensible solution. The key to this is experience, I'd say unless you want to work for one of the big boys (by that I mean big consultancy firms) get out and work. Understand the technologies, but understand business and how technology can fit.
Sorry that is a bit of a rant but I've suffered at the hands of 'Expert Consultants' who were so far up their own arses.......
David
As has already been mentioned on other threads the IT job market is pretty crap so Uni might be an option, but then how long is the course, does it have a placement on it?
What sort of consultancy are you aiming for? IT consultants fall into a number of categories.
a) Those who work for the big boys who produce lots of paper but fail to deliver a working solution...ever.
b) Contractors who think they are consultants but are not (no offense to all you contract scum :-))
c) Old blokes who've been there done that, for everything. They are very good at pointing out the obvious and sometimes very good value (and sometimes not).
The best consultants I've worked with are those that have a very good understanding of their subject but also are able to get a very good understanding of their customer and their problems (which the customer won't know the half of). They can then translate this into English and come up with a sensible solution. The key to this is experience, I'd say unless you want to work for one of the big boys (by that I mean big consultancy firms) get out and work. Understand the technologies, but understand business and how technology can fit.
Sorry that is a bit of a rant but I've suffered at the hands of 'Expert Consultants' who were so far up their own arses.......
David
Disagree on the degree front. In the ageist society we live in, being young with experience is a great benefit. Being young with a degree isn't. Mad but that's the way it is.
Move sideways within your current job first, then just keep moving. I had 7 permie jobs in ten years, starting from 18 and ended up doing very well thankyou as I was young with useful and varied experience.
Then I jacked it all in to talk about cars all day, but that's another story
Move sideways within your current job first, then just keep moving. I had 7 permie jobs in ten years, starting from 18 and ended up doing very well thankyou as I was young with useful and varied experience.
Then I jacked it all in to talk about cars all day, but that's another story
Thanks for the advice so far, keep it coming
Greg, I think that I could manage it that way if it wasn't for the job I'm doing at the moment. It is computer support, but only really in office etc. I know far too much to be stuck doing this. But the experience I am getting here is not enough to move on to anything better, and work my way up. The way I see it is that with the computation degree from UMIST I can walk straight into a fairly decent 20k+ job (they all did) and then work up from there. Also, I'm only 23 so I'm still young enough to enjoy a student lifestyle
Greg, I think that I could manage it that way if it wasn't for the job I'm doing at the moment. It is computer support, but only really in office etc. I know far too much to be stuck doing this. But the experience I am getting here is not enough to move on to anything better, and work my way up. The way I see it is that with the computation degree from UMIST I can walk straight into a fairly decent 20k+ job (they all did) and then work up from there. Also, I'm only 23 so I'm still young enough to enjoy a student lifestyle
To be honest its a difficult time. Back when I started out in IT (10 years ago!!) it was more of case of what you can do hitting the ground running rather than what qualifications usually based on defunct technology were on your CV.
I did a degree in Software Engineering (YAWN!) which taught me (for the brief period I was there) how to design systems that dont need testing, no one actually uses it because its a complete waste of time mainly due to the fact that developers are pricey and testers are cheap! My point though is that the educational way is not neccesarily the way that most businesses do it.
However, no when there are more people chasing fewer jobs due to the fact that the bottom has fallen out of the contract market everyone is taking a step back. Junior developers are going after helpdesk as are mid skill network people, senior contractors are going after bog standard development roles the market has shifted most people into undervaluing their skills (one should never lose ones prestige...darling!) so its getting more difficult for people trying to get a start to get in.
Whether a degree would help you achieve the head and shoulders above the crowd is a tricky one, UMIST is a good school (swimming pool engineering disaster aside) so it would probably get you a start but 3 years just to distinguish yourself seems like a long time to me.
Pester agents, they are an inherantly lazy bunch
Matt.
I did a degree in Software Engineering (YAWN!) which taught me (for the brief period I was there) how to design systems that dont need testing, no one actually uses it because its a complete waste of time mainly due to the fact that developers are pricey and testers are cheap! My point though is that the educational way is not neccesarily the way that most businesses do it.
However, no when there are more people chasing fewer jobs due to the fact that the bottom has fallen out of the contract market everyone is taking a step back. Junior developers are going after helpdesk as are mid skill network people, senior contractors are going after bog standard development roles the market has shifted most people into undervaluing their skills (one should never lose ones prestige...darling!) so its getting more difficult for people trying to get a start to get in.
Whether a degree would help you achieve the head and shoulders above the crowd is a tricky one, UMIST is a good school (swimming pool engineering disaster aside) so it would probably get you a start but 3 years just to distinguish yourself seems like a long time to me.
Pester agents, they are an inherantly lazy bunch
Matt.
quote:
Project manager type jobs really. I think I could probably get up to system engineer by working through the cogs. I know people who have done the same degree and they all have nice IT jobs now, two of them own their own company. I just feel like I'm wasting my life doing what I'm doing at the moment.
Oh project manager, you should have said.
Easy, just learn how to communicate. The art of being a good PM is communication, get that sorted and you'll be fine (having a large bat to hit developers with when they are late helps).
David
One other thing, I've interviewed and taken on a lot of IT staff over the last ten years. I'd say that in every case experience has counted more than education in every step to the interview, once at the interview it is all down to attitude.
Have you thought about a cisco or Microsoft qualification? There is an argument that these are justbits of paper but at least they are on topic.
David
Have you thought about a cisco or Microsoft qualification? There is an argument that these are justbits of paper but at least they are on topic.
David
Agree with Ted here - Degrees indicate the willingness to learn, but dont necessarily relevant to the real world. I would say that there are a few notable exceptions (to prove the rule) like an Msc in Information Security from Royal Holloway University. Ok, so it is very focused, but relevant to the real world and probably worth a few £Ks on the salary.
But in reality most people want experience and go from there - However, a good grounding on business is an excellent start. Oh, and getting a microsoft qualification doesnt count either - they are easy (ish) to get and you can find all sorts of morons with them these days - doesnt give you a guide to the candidate....
Cheers,
Paul
But in reality most people want experience and go from there - However, a good grounding on business is an excellent start. Oh, and getting a microsoft qualification doesnt count either - they are easy (ish) to get and you can find all sorts of morons with them these days - doesnt give you a guide to the candidate....
Cheers,
Paul
When I recruited, I looked for experience, attitude and people skills. Attitude was the most important - and contradicting my earlier post - if someone had the right attitude but not perfect technical skills - they'd often get the job.
I'd also look to employ people that would go drinking after work with me
I'd also look to employ people that would go drinking after work with me
Just as a thought, of the developers in my office, I think I'm the only one with a computer science qualification. The others are a Maths degree, a solar physics phd, couple of electronic engineers and... another maths person (we're all early 20's & relatively new to the game!). So if you're interested in the whole degree thing its worth noting that computing isn't necessarily the only way into IT...
quote:
Have you thought about a cisco or Microsoft qualification? There is an argument that these are justbits of paper but at least they are on topic.
What is everyones opinion of the Cisco qualification? is it worth doing?
I have head a lot of people say the MCSE quals aren't that good, but the sisco one is the one to go for, is that right ?
Well I want to do the computation degree too. It's not just for the career. You are all making good points though and they are well recieved. As I've said though, it's a bit of a vicious circle at the moment because the only experience I am getting in this job is bloody Gassing Station experience. And I'm quite sure that there aren't too many people looking for a GS expert. Not even Ted, he's already got it covered
working in IT management is 100% Attitude and Management (mostly People-)... afterall I could know the ins and outs of a Cisco Router, and how to configure a firewall, but it wouldn't help one bit in co-ordinating development teams, dealing with personnel issues, preparing budgets, targeting sales etc etc..
As long as you have a clear goal of where you want to be and always work towards it you will get there...
Cheers,
Matt.
As long as you have a clear goal of where you want to be and always work towards it you will get there...
Cheers,
Matt.
quote:
What is everyones opinion of the Cisco qualification? is it worth doing?
I have head a lot of people say the MCSE quals aren't that good, but the sisco one is the one to go for, is that right ?
Interesting question - how long have you got? Both qualification systems are well policed and are pretty good guides to knowledge (BUT NOT EXPERIENCE). Obviously the Microsoft ones are easier to get and you can cheat by getting the study guides and exam questions from the 'net. However, if you are Microsoft focused they are worth getting - but do understand that to get that specific piece of knowledge you do need to progress the "tree" to get to it - you cant jump in at a particular point.
Cisco is actually better regarded. Not only more specific, but actually better quality. However, again they are not necessarily a guide to the experience that they have - though to a lesser extent than Microsoft - you have to do a number of lab sessions for the practical elements to some of the advanced exams. It will be vendor focused, but it does cover a lot of the background on networking etc.
I am in IT and Network security so can comment their relevant directly. In fact at the company we work for - neither Microsoft or Cisco are held as particularily relevant (but worth something when screening for interviews).
But the most important thing to remember is that being vendor focused they will tell you what they think you should know - and not what the rest of the world would like you to know.....
Cheers,
Paul
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