Too many Road Legal Track cars...?
Discussion
Just interested in everyone's opinion on this...
Seems to me that Lotus started the ball rolling a few years back with the launch of the Elise... basically a road legal track day car.. and since then others have flooded into the market, whilst the oldies (Westfield and Caterham) are doing better than ever before.
Now with the prospect of the As One as well... are there just too many cars in this sector? Will it kill it off? or will we just see ever more extreme machinery become available?
Thoughts?
Seems to me that Lotus started the ball rolling a few years back with the launch of the Elise... basically a road legal track day car.. and since then others have flooded into the market, whilst the oldies (Westfield and Caterham) are doing better than ever before.
Now with the prospect of the As One as well... are there just too many cars in this sector? Will it kill it off? or will we just see ever more extreme machinery become available?
Thoughts?
I agree that choice an innovation for the consumer is good, but with SO many companies producing such cars - can they all really expect to survive?
For example... Marcos (now reborn), Trident etc, etc.. often going to the wall, as customers go for the established companies / perenial favourites; TVR.
So how much room is there in the market place for these new guys? - they may only expect to sell a few cars, and some of them may be bloody good (Strathcarron for example) but with the "big boys" there, how much chance do they really stand?
For example... Marcos (now reborn), Trident etc, etc.. often going to the wall, as customers go for the established companies / perenial favourites; TVR.
So how much room is there in the market place for these new guys? - they may only expect to sell a few cars, and some of them may be bloody good (Strathcarron for example) but with the "big boys" there, how much chance do they really stand?
I would be fascinated to know what made the Strathcarron "bloody good".
As as I can tell, Strathcarron never had a viable product, whatever it looked like. For a start, whatever was said in the media about rule changes, the engine concept was never legal for emissions (other than in amateur built cars) nor was it ever going to be at the volumes they talked about. The car had no roof, doors or interior. Choosing motor sport suppliers to make parts for a road car to be produced in hundreds per year (this was the original pitch in the media) must have done terrible things to their piece price and hence possible commercial viability. Finally, I have met two people who have driven a Strathcarron and both were deeply under whelmed by the experience.
This is not an attack on the people who tried with Strathcarron, I know what it takes to get a car on the road so they have my every sympathy but I would like to know what leads the media and enthusiasts to be so credulous.
As as I can tell, Strathcarron never had a viable product, whatever it looked like. For a start, whatever was said in the media about rule changes, the engine concept was never legal for emissions (other than in amateur built cars) nor was it ever going to be at the volumes they talked about. The car had no roof, doors or interior. Choosing motor sport suppliers to make parts for a road car to be produced in hundreds per year (this was the original pitch in the media) must have done terrible things to their piece price and hence possible commercial viability. Finally, I have met two people who have driven a Strathcarron and both were deeply under whelmed by the experience.
This is not an attack on the people who tried with Strathcarron, I know what it takes to get a car on the road so they have my every sympathy but I would like to know what leads the media and enthusiasts to be so credulous.
quote:
Tvr and Trident - aren't exactly track day cars are they - nice sports cars in a GT kind of way
But not an open wheeled, roofless td car in a caterham westfield, 340r, ultima can am, etc
Bring them on I say....more toys
Most TVRs are as fast or faster than most Caterhams Elises etc why are they not "exactly track day cars" ??
As far as the Strathcarron goes I can only comment on what I have read in the media since I have never driven one - the same is true of the FBS Census.
At some point in time, someone must have considered it a viable project otherwise the financing to get it off the ground (albeit not very high) would not have been made available. Bankers in this sense are risk analysts, so it looks like they got it wrong in that example... it's not nice to see all that hard work go to waste, and as a bit of a jingoist I'd like to see British sportscars thrive once again... I can only hope that FBS has greater success.
>> Edited by Podie on Friday 16th August 13:16
At some point in time, someone must have considered it a viable project otherwise the financing to get it off the ground (albeit not very high) would not have been made available. Bankers in this sense are risk analysts, so it looks like they got it wrong in that example... it's not nice to see all that hard work go to waste, and as a bit of a jingoist I'd like to see British sportscars thrive once again... I can only hope that FBS has greater success.
>> Edited by Podie on Friday 16th August 13:16
quote:
Most TVRs are as fast or faster than most Caterhams Elises etc why are they not "exactly track day cars
Imho - only -
elise /caterham are much lighter, have very basic interiors etc, are much more focused on track use. Tvr etc - lots of luxury gubbins etc
Also - tyres, brakes,suspension etc are easier and cheaper on the caterfields and elises.
Plus I am really not sure about your comment on tvr being quicker round a track ? maybe on a very high speed straightish track but on the td I have been on I have not been passed by a tvr .... I have an elises 111s.
appreciate - tvr will crack 190mph downhill but thats not the same as handling...
my opinion only
quote:
Most TVRs are as fast or faster than most Caterhams Elises etc why are they not "exactly track day cars" ??
Speed isn't that much an issue. My impression of a track day car is a car thats back to basics as far as possible. No real comfort or practicality as its designed to play with, also part of it for me would be the road handling which should give ultimate feedback. The Tiv can and often is used as an everyday car. I personally wouldn't class it as a track day car as its too posh (you'd be too scared to trash it).
Joe - seems someone liked the Strathcarron... www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/index.asp?storyId=2923
Podie,
Thanks for the good wishes.
I agree, it is awful when all that work goes to waste.
I have no idea what the people who backed Strathcarron thought or whether they were indeed dispassionate bankers. Investing in any kind of manufacturing is not easy to justify to large institutions because their masters (share holders) have little truck with the timescales involved. Maybe Strathcarron's investors came to the project for other reasons? I have always understood from the media (paragons of accuracy that they are) that the name Strathcarron came from connections in the House of Lords. I would be interested to know if this is true.
Thanks for the good wishes.
I agree, it is awful when all that work goes to waste.
I have no idea what the people who backed Strathcarron thought or whether they were indeed dispassionate bankers. Investing in any kind of manufacturing is not easy to justify to large institutions because their masters (share holders) have little truck with the timescales involved. Maybe Strathcarron's investors came to the project for other reasons? I have always understood from the media (paragons of accuracy that they are) that the name Strathcarron came from connections in the House of Lords. I would be interested to know if this is true.
Well I hope the British Kit car companies last for a long time. I would never by a German kit car, after all we started it all off in the begining or at least helped.
I think the major considuration for a kit car is it should be cheap to by as a kit and well priced fully built and if there is kit cars priced at therty grand, why not by a TVR instead ??
There is a lot of kits out there and I for one think it is a very hard choice to chose one to build but once again the price and ease of build has ot to be the major factors.
I think the major considuration for a kit car is it should be cheap to by as a kit and well priced fully built and if there is kit cars priced at therty grand, why not by a TVR instead ??
There is a lot of kits out there and I for one think it is a very hard choice to chose one to build but once again the price and ease of build has ot to be the major factors.
quote:
have always understood from the media (paragons of accuracy that they are)
- enjoyed that. Well wishes are certainly sincere... I'd love to have the ability (technically) to design and build a car - so hats off to those that achieve it. Having read previous threads it seems as if you might have a winner on your hands - so I look forward to the day when I get overtaken by one! (bit out of my league at the mo!
)The Erics, eh?
All roads lead to the VAG marketing department, no?
If not now, then in the future.
I agree that the notion of specialised niche players that are truly desirable, independent and original seems to be a quintessentially British one, for no particular reason though!
Small scale kit car manufacture as a hobby for two blokes with a passion for wooly jumpers and beards is one thing but I (unfortunately) see liitle viability for more than a tiny quotient of 'proper' small scale manufacturers.
I've nothing whatsoever against the seeming proliferation of these road racers but they hold little appeal (for me) over a common or garden Caterham etc because whilst they are clearly dynamic beyond normal comprehension on the track(Radical SR3, for e.g) how would they perform on non-billiard smooth surfaces?
So you kinda wonder, what's the point?
Choice is fine but you can have too much, IMHO and many industries suffer from over excited management completely overestimating potential demand and then the whole thing going tits up.
But if they can and do succeed, great!
{I must say, though, that the Ultima GTR is one of this genre that I would dearly love to experince so if the style is interesting enough, rather than following (perhaps?) something of a functionally-designated parameter, then fair dinkum.}
All roads lead to the VAG marketing department, no?
If not now, then in the future.
I agree that the notion of specialised niche players that are truly desirable, independent and original seems to be a quintessentially British one, for no particular reason though!
Small scale kit car manufacture as a hobby for two blokes with a passion for wooly jumpers and beards is one thing but I (unfortunately) see liitle viability for more than a tiny quotient of 'proper' small scale manufacturers.
I've nothing whatsoever against the seeming proliferation of these road racers but they hold little appeal (for me) over a common or garden Caterham etc because whilst they are clearly dynamic beyond normal comprehension on the track(Radical SR3, for e.g) how would they perform on non-billiard smooth surfaces?
So you kinda wonder, what's the point?
Choice is fine but you can have too much, IMHO and many industries suffer from over excited management completely overestimating potential demand and then the whole thing going tits up.
But if they can and do succeed, great!
{I must say, though, that the Ultima GTR is one of this genre that I would dearly love to experince so if the style is interesting enough, rather than following (perhaps?) something of a functionally-designated parameter, then fair dinkum.}
Hello Podie,
It has been four years of f hard work. We knew it was going to be very difficult (I have been in the vehicle engineering and project management business for over 11 years so have a pretty good idea of what it takes) but it has been even more difficult than that! The biggest problem has been finding reliable and capable suppliers. So many people talk more than they achieve. We now have a set of suppliers we are happy with but have dropped a lot along the way.
We have been delivering customer cars at one per month since June. The third one goes out this week (inconsistent SVA tests permitting). Pictures of all our cars at
www.fbscars.co.uk/gallery_all%20cars.htm
thanks
Joe
It has been four years of f hard work. We knew it was going to be very difficult (I have been in the vehicle engineering and project management business for over 11 years so have a pretty good idea of what it takes) but it has been even more difficult than that! The biggest problem has been finding reliable and capable suppliers. So many people talk more than they achieve. We now have a set of suppliers we are happy with but have dropped a lot along the way.
We have been delivering customer cars at one per month since June. The third one goes out this week (inconsistent SVA tests permitting). Pictures of all our cars at
www.fbscars.co.uk/gallery_all%20cars.htm
thanks
Joe
Joe - sorry, it was just curiosity that asked that question!
Nice to see that cars are starting to roll out... and must admit the looks of the car are starting to grow on me
Anyway, hope it continues to go well - and if you ever need an Ergonomist, drop me a line! Top job, keep up the good work, and I look forward to seeing one some day.
Nice to see that cars are starting to roll out... and must admit the looks of the car are starting to grow on me
Anyway, hope it continues to go well - and if you ever need an Ergonomist, drop me a line! Top job, keep up the good work, and I look forward to seeing one some day.
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