Hub and gearing questions
Discussion
I initially intended to swap my nicer shimano RS80 wheels for my cruddy old fulcrum 7 wheels when November started but the RS80 wheels are 10/11 speed compatible whereas the fulcrum wheels are just 10 speed. Now, to get my rear mech working with the older fulcrum wheels I know it's a case of using my cassette but taking out the small spacer which the RS80 wheels use and then adjusting the high/low limit screws...... That's fine.
My question though is this..... I currently use a wahoo kickr which also has the same cassette on and works perfectly with no alterations from when I take the RS80 rear wheel off and put the bike on the Kickr. Now, obviously if I swap to the fulcrum wheels the alignment for the mech would be wrong for the Wahoo Kickr. The cassette on the Kickr had a small spacer as well. Would it simply be a case of removing the spacer from the cassette from the kickr and then that should mean the alignment would be the same as with the fulcrum wheels?
If not.... I'll just stick with my RS80 over the winter and maybe just use the fulcrum front wheel!
My question though is this..... I currently use a wahoo kickr which also has the same cassette on and works perfectly with no alterations from when I take the RS80 rear wheel off and put the bike on the Kickr. Now, obviously if I swap to the fulcrum wheels the alignment for the mech would be wrong for the Wahoo Kickr. The cassette on the Kickr had a small spacer as well. Would it simply be a case of removing the spacer from the cassette from the kickr and then that should mean the alignment would be the same as with the fulcrum wheels?
If not.... I'll just stick with my RS80 over the winter and maybe just use the fulcrum front wheel!
You're overcomplicating it 
A hub for 11s is longer than for 10s and the 'shoulder' the cassette mounts against closer to the centreline of the bike. So, when you run a 10 speed on a 11speed hub, you need the little spacer to get everything in the right place. When you run a 10s cassette on a 10s hub you don't.
That simple. No limit screw adjustments.
Your kickr works fine because it has a 10 speed cassette properly installed. It will continue to work fine.
If your 10s cassette is 105 or better and has an alloy spider, it requires a very thin, flat 'washer' type spacer, even on a 10s hub. That 'offsets' the spider being recessed vs a cheaper flat piece of metal cassette. You're probably using that with the 10s spacer anyway.
A hub for 11s is longer than for 10s and the 'shoulder' the cassette mounts against closer to the centreline of the bike. So, when you run a 10 speed on a 11speed hub, you need the little spacer to get everything in the right place. When you run a 10s cassette on a 10s hub you don't.
That simple. No limit screw adjustments.
Your kickr works fine because it has a 10 speed cassette properly installed. It will continue to work fine.
If your 10s cassette is 105 or better and has an alloy spider, it requires a very thin, flat 'washer' type spacer, even on a 10s hub. That 'offsets' the spider being recessed vs a cheaper flat piece of metal cassette. You're probably using that with the 10s spacer anyway.
You've kind of got my point.... But the wrong way around! The spacer you mention is present with my 10 speed cassette on both the kickr and wet I'm running on the RS80 wheels.
If I swap everything from the cassette from the RS80 wheels to the fulcrum wheels the cassette doesn't fit, so the spacer has to be removed. Once fitted, the rear mech doesn't line up with 1st gear when I try putting it in the lowest gear,hence the need to adjust the limit screws.
Does that make sense?
If I swap everything from the cassette from the RS80 wheels to the fulcrum wheels the cassette doesn't fit, so the spacer has to be removed. Once fitted, the rear mech doesn't line up with 1st gear when I try putting it in the lowest gear,hence the need to adjust the limit screws.
Does that make sense?
You're reading me back to front maybe!
SIDENOTE - we are talking shimano right? If we're not, then I don't know, period. But I don't think RS80's come with a campag hub..
10/11 speed compatible wheel (hub) is long, 10speed cassette is short. So you need a spacer on the RS80s with a 10s cassette (if you fitted an 11 you would not). That spacer will be 1.8mm/2.8mm - more of that later
10 speed compatible wheel (fulcrum) has a shorter hub. 10 speed cassette didn't change size, so you do not need the spacer.
I imagine the kickr is 10/11 speed compatible, hence it also needs 1.8m/2.8mm of spacer.
Upshot of all of that is that if all is right you can swap around at will without screwing with the limit adjusters. Basically NEVER screw with the limit adjusters, just cable tension if you need to.
That is it (trust me, I know this stuff backwards)
Now IF you don't line up on the fulcrums, something else is wrong - you fix that and you should be back to the point where you can swap back and forth between the kickr and the fulcrums as with the RS80's.
I see some possibilities, partly depending on your cassette.
105, ultegra, dura ace cassettes are built with the first 3 or so sprockets riveted to an alloy carrier. That means the carrier face is slightly recessed, so they come with a 1mm spacer to put them right..
Now, some '11 speed' spacers are 1.8mm, and should be used with the 1mm washer in the case of the cassettes above. So, total spacer is 2.8 mm for a 'good' cassette.
Some 11 speed spacers helpfully put both together and are 2.8mm on their own - so you don't use the washer (and those don't work with cassettes that are just a bunch of flat plates like the cheaper ones)
If the fulcrums need an adjustment, I suspect you may have removed a 2.8mm spacer and NOT put the required 1mm in.
Of course if you have a cheap-ass cassette that is just stacked plates, that theory doesn't hold up.
SIDENOTE - we are talking shimano right? If we're not, then I don't know, period. But I don't think RS80's come with a campag hub..
10/11 speed compatible wheel (hub) is long, 10speed cassette is short. So you need a spacer on the RS80s with a 10s cassette (if you fitted an 11 you would not). That spacer will be 1.8mm/2.8mm - more of that later
10 speed compatible wheel (fulcrum) has a shorter hub. 10 speed cassette didn't change size, so you do not need the spacer.
I imagine the kickr is 10/11 speed compatible, hence it also needs 1.8m/2.8mm of spacer.
Upshot of all of that is that if all is right you can swap around at will without screwing with the limit adjusters. Basically NEVER screw with the limit adjusters, just cable tension if you need to.
That is it (trust me, I know this stuff backwards)
Now IF you don't line up on the fulcrums, something else is wrong - you fix that and you should be back to the point where you can swap back and forth between the kickr and the fulcrums as with the RS80's.
I see some possibilities, partly depending on your cassette.
105, ultegra, dura ace cassettes are built with the first 3 or so sprockets riveted to an alloy carrier. That means the carrier face is slightly recessed, so they come with a 1mm spacer to put them right..
Now, some '11 speed' spacers are 1.8mm, and should be used with the 1mm washer in the case of the cassettes above. So, total spacer is 2.8 mm for a 'good' cassette.
Some 11 speed spacers helpfully put both together and are 2.8mm on their own - so you don't use the washer (and those don't work with cassettes that are just a bunch of flat plates like the cheaper ones)
If the fulcrums need an adjustment, I suspect you may have removed a 2.8mm spacer and NOT put the required 1mm in.
Of course if you have a cheap-ass cassette that is just stacked plates, that theory doesn't hold up.
I'm running a shimano Ultegra 6700 10 speed cassette. You're right in assuming the kickr and RS80 wheels are 10/11 speed compatible. The fulcrum are just 10 speed compatible.
When I removed the small spacer from the ultegra cassette and fitted to the fulcrum wheel the rear mech didn't align with 1st gear (I didn't try shifting further)
Any ideas?
Really appreciate the help
When I removed the small spacer from the ultegra cassette and fitted to the fulcrum wheel the rear mech didn't align with 1st gear (I didn't try shifting further)
Any ideas?
Really appreciate the help
Edited by E65Ross on Friday 6th November 11:40
E65Ross said:
I'm running a shimano Ultegra 6700 10 speed cassette. You're right in assuming the kickr and RS80 wheels are 10/11 speed compatible. The fulcrum are just 10 speed compatible.
When I removed the small spacer from the ultegra cassette and fitted to the fulcrum wheel the rear mech didn't align with 1st gear (I didn't try shifting further)
Any ideas?
Really appreciate the help
I seem to remember having to use a spacer on my Fulcrum quatrros's when I was running shimano 10 speed. This spacer was provided with the wheelset as the wheelset at the time was 9/10 speed compatible. Have you tried the cassette on the Fulcrum wheels with the spacer?When I removed the small spacer from the ultegra cassette and fitted to the fulcrum wheel the rear mech didn't align with 1st gear (I didn't try shifting further)
Any ideas?
Really appreciate the help
Edited by E65Ross on Friday 6th November 11:40
Cheers
Paul
paulmon said:
E65Ross said:
I'm running a shimano Ultegra 6700 10 speed cassette. You're right in assuming the kickr and RS80 wheels are 10/11 speed compatible. The fulcrum are just 10 speed compatible.
When I removed the small spacer from the ultegra cassette and fitted to the fulcrum wheel the rear mech didn't align with 1st gear (I didn't try shifting further)
Any ideas?
Really appreciate the help
I seem to remember having to use a spacer on my Fulcrum quatrros's when I was running shimano 10 speed. This spacer was provided with the wheelset as the wheelset at the time was 9/10 speed compatible. Have you tried the cassette on the Fulcrum wheels with the spacer?When I removed the small spacer from the ultegra cassette and fitted to the fulcrum wheel the rear mech didn't align with 1st gear (I didn't try shifting further)
Any ideas?
Really appreciate the help
Edited by E65Ross on Friday 6th November 11:40
Cheers
Paul
Hmmm any ideas?
Thanks again
Have a look at this: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Cassette_Spacers_20...
On the RS80/kickr you should have 2.8mm of spacer - either as 1 that is 2.8mm, or a 1.8 *plus* the little 1mm washer.
On the fulcrum you should have 1mm - the flat washer thing.
On the RS80/kickr you should have 2.8mm of spacer - either as 1 that is 2.8mm, or a 1.8 *plus* the little 1mm washer.
On the fulcrum you should have 1mm - the flat washer thing.
upsidedownmark said:
Have a look at this: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Cassette_Spacers_20...
On the RS80/kickr you should have 2.8mm of spacer - either as 1 that is 2.8mm, or a 1.8 *plus* the little 1mm washer.
On the fulcrum you should have 1mm - the flat washer thing.
Thanks, I'll take everything off tomorrow and try and get some pics. On the RS80/kickr you should have 2.8mm of spacer - either as 1 that is 2.8mm, or a 1.8 *plus* the little 1mm washer.
On the fulcrum you should have 1mm - the flat washer thing.
Cheers
Just having a think again.... Are you saying that I shouldn't need to change anything at all on the Wahoo Kickr, even when I swap to the fulcrum wheels?
Can't see why it didn't work, removing that small spacer from the cassette which I have to use on the RS80 rear hub? If I get the change I'll try again tonight but if not at some point tomorrow.
Thanks again
Can't see why it didn't work, removing that small spacer from the cassette which I have to use on the RS80 rear hub? If I get the change I'll try again tonight but if not at some point tomorrow.
Thanks again
I think your problem might be with your Fulcrum wheels, I have a few pairs I use as spares on our cyclocross and road bikes, and I usually have Hope or Shimano hubs. The Hope and Shimano hubs interchange with no adjustment, but if I use the Fulcrums I have to tweak the limit screws and cable a bit, the cassette sits a little further towards center of the wheel, not much, but just enough to stop the chain sitting in the largest sprocket.
gazza285 said:
I think your problem might be with your Fulcrum wheels, I have a few pairs I use as spares on our cyclocross and road bikes, and I usually have Hope or Shimano hubs. The Hope and Shimano hubs interchange with no adjustment, but if I use the Fulcrums I have to tweak the limit screws and cable a bit, the cassette sits a little further towards center of the wheel, not much, but just enough to stop the chain sitting in the largest sprocket.
This was my thinking to be honest. I shan't be using the bike in the rain etc THAT much over the winter, so should I just stick with the RS80 wheels, and replace when needed?
I haven't taken the cassette off the kickr but this is what the RS80 runs..... You can see the small spacer "behind" the large set of 3 gears. This is identical to what the kickr runs, as I fitted the cassette myself.
If I try fitting that to the hub of the fulcrum wheel it will not fit. If I remove that spacer aforementioned then it will fit, but the rear mech didn't seem to align properly.
Am I missing something simple?
Thanks again
If I try fitting that to the hub of the fulcrum wheel it will not fit. If I remove that spacer aforementioned then it will fit, but the rear mech didn't seem to align properly.
Am I missing something simple?
Thanks again
Yup. Kinda.
What you have there is the correct setup for a 10 speed cassette on a 9/10 speed hub. That little spacer is the 1mm spacer I was talking about for the higher end cassettes. If you look at http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mx416/media/Bike/T... you should see why your cassette needs that / the cheaper ones don't.
That little lot *SHOULD* fit on the fulcrums just fine - if they don't, there's something odd going on, or there's a mess up in the fitting - hard to say why / if you just need to 'persuade' it.
IF your RS80's and your Kickr really are 11speed hubs, you should be using an EXTRA spacer (1.8mm) with the one you have to take it up to 2.8mm of spacer 'stack'
What I suspect you have done is installed the kickr/rs80s without the converter spacer, and tuned the limits to that - to be honest I'm surprised that's worked/that you didn't bottom the lockring out before you got any tension on the thing.
As I say, the whole lot pictured *should* go on the fulcrums - then you would have a 1mm spacer on the fulcrums and 1+1.8 on the kickr/rs80, and once you'd corrected the limits all would be interchangeable. As it is, you'd need a -0.8mm spacer on the fulcrums to make them the same limit adjustment
FWIW I have 10 speed on 11 speed novatec hubs, 10 speed on a Flo disc (both using 2.8mm of spacers), and 10 speed on 2 different 10speed hubs - both using the 1mm cassette spacer. (Yes, too many wheels..) All can be swapped at will, no tweaking required.
What you have there is the correct setup for a 10 speed cassette on a 9/10 speed hub. That little spacer is the 1mm spacer I was talking about for the higher end cassettes. If you look at http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mx416/media/Bike/T... you should see why your cassette needs that / the cheaper ones don't.
That little lot *SHOULD* fit on the fulcrums just fine - if they don't, there's something odd going on, or there's a mess up in the fitting - hard to say why / if you just need to 'persuade' it.
IF your RS80's and your Kickr really are 11speed hubs, you should be using an EXTRA spacer (1.8mm) with the one you have to take it up to 2.8mm of spacer 'stack'
What I suspect you have done is installed the kickr/rs80s without the converter spacer, and tuned the limits to that - to be honest I'm surprised that's worked/that you didn't bottom the lockring out before you got any tension on the thing.
As I say, the whole lot pictured *should* go on the fulcrums - then you would have a 1mm spacer on the fulcrums and 1+1.8 on the kickr/rs80, and once you'd corrected the limits all would be interchangeable. As it is, you'd need a -0.8mm spacer on the fulcrums to make them the same limit adjustment
FWIW I have 10 speed on 11 speed novatec hubs, 10 speed on a Flo disc (both using 2.8mm of spacers), and 10 speed on 2 different 10speed hubs - both using the 1mm cassette spacer. (Yes, too many wheels..) All can be swapped at will, no tweaking required.
Well here's a turn up for the books....
Took the cassette off the kickr.... And it has 2 spacers, the same as pictured above but also the thicker one. When on the Kickr it still shifts gear fine (though I'll admit it does seem to rattle ever so slightly).
I'm not sure I fancy messing around with the limit screws, so would I be better removing the thicker spacer from the kickr, so it should be identical to watch the RS80 currently has?
Thanks.
Took the cassette off the kickr.... And it has 2 spacers, the same as pictured above but also the thicker one. When on the Kickr it still shifts gear fine (though I'll admit it does seem to rattle ever so slightly).
I'm not sure I fancy messing around with the limit screws, so would I be better removing the thicker spacer from the kickr, so it should be identical to watch the RS80 currently has?
Thanks.
I've been in the workshop today, there's a 1mm difference in the position of the freehub on the Fulcrum hub compared to the two Hope hubs I measured, the Shimano hubs I measured were the same as the Hopes. My memory must be playing up because it is the Fulcrum hubs that put the cassette further out from the center of the wheel. You could try removing the axle cap nut on the drive side of the Fulcrum hub and sticking a 1mm thick washer behind it, this would correct the cassette shoulder to drop-out distance to the same as a Shimano hub.
Right....
Had a little play around and I was able to get the cassette with the 1mm spacer from my RS80 cassette on there and it shifts absolutely fine. It sounds ever so slightly (and I mean ever so slightly!!) rattly, as it does on the wahoo kickr. This makes me think, as suggested above, that I may be missing a 1.8mm spacer from the RS80 wheel and the rear mech has been adjusted to that. Having said that, if it was missing a 1.8mm spacer wouldn't the cassette rattle about a bit/have some play?
If I am missing a 1.8mm spacer, where can I get one, and this (I guess) would mean I'd need to get the limit screws adjusted?
Thanks again
Had a little play around and I was able to get the cassette with the 1mm spacer from my RS80 cassette on there and it shifts absolutely fine. It sounds ever so slightly (and I mean ever so slightly!!) rattly, as it does on the wahoo kickr. This makes me think, as suggested above, that I may be missing a 1.8mm spacer from the RS80 wheel and the rear mech has been adjusted to that. Having said that, if it was missing a 1.8mm spacer wouldn't the cassette rattle about a bit/have some play?
If I am missing a 1.8mm spacer, where can I get one, and this (I guess) would mean I'd need to get the limit screws adjusted?
Thanks again
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