Lexus IS250 vs. Subaru Legacy 3.0 R spec B
Discussion
I'm looking at the 2 cars above to replace my uninspiring yet still amazingly reliable first gen Avensis. I would like something a bit more exciting and involving -- the easy bit ha --, but without sacrificing too much in terms of reliability or family practicality -- the slightly harder bit. (An alternative scenario I'm playing with is actually keeping the old Toyota rolling, waiting for an affordable rental garage to come up and then using that for something older and fun for weekends.)
Budget is up to around 8K and I'd prefer not to buy older than 7 years. I don't drive much more than 7K miles per year these days so highish MPG is not a major obstacle. The car has to be automatic and full leather, which rules out the entry level IS250. I don't like estate cars so the Legacy would have to be a saloon. Finally, I'd be looking to keep the car for a good few years, so residuals and ease of reselling matter very little.
Curious to hear whether others think my list of pros and cons (ordered purely randomly; for example, I don't necessarily value interior over performance) of each is accurate, and whether perhaps there's another car I should be looking at. One disadvantage of both cars is that they seem to be very limited in terms of modifying them to increase power/torque. This isn't something I've ever dabbled in before but I might be tempted.
Exterior: highly personal of course but I like both; the Lexus looks more modern to me but the Subaru is even more understated
Interior: nicer in the Lexus, with more toys and a better stereo (especially in SE-L spec); the Subaru is a bit more spacious in the back and has a bigger boot, plus AFAIK its rear seat folds down
Performance: with about 40 extra horses the Subaru is a bit faster than the Lexus, but with the apparently slightly sluggish 5 speed auto box most of its advantage in acceleration seems to be lost
Driving: not having test driven either yet, I am relying on what I've read, which suggests that both of these are quite responsive though less so than a 3 series, and generally pretty smooth and comfortable albeit a bit harsh over uneven roads and potholes, especially with big alloys
Running costs: likely to be a bit lower for the Lexus, partly because of cheaper tax (£290 vs. £490) and lower insurance group
Price: the Subaru is a rare beast and prices seem less fixed than for the Lexus; however, when they do come up for sale Subarus seem to be cheaper, no doubt partly due to that high tax and their less upmarket image
Budget is up to around 8K and I'd prefer not to buy older than 7 years. I don't drive much more than 7K miles per year these days so highish MPG is not a major obstacle. The car has to be automatic and full leather, which rules out the entry level IS250. I don't like estate cars so the Legacy would have to be a saloon. Finally, I'd be looking to keep the car for a good few years, so residuals and ease of reselling matter very little.
Curious to hear whether others think my list of pros and cons (ordered purely randomly; for example, I don't necessarily value interior over performance) of each is accurate, and whether perhaps there's another car I should be looking at. One disadvantage of both cars is that they seem to be very limited in terms of modifying them to increase power/torque. This isn't something I've ever dabbled in before but I might be tempted.
Exterior: highly personal of course but I like both; the Lexus looks more modern to me but the Subaru is even more understated
Interior: nicer in the Lexus, with more toys and a better stereo (especially in SE-L spec); the Subaru is a bit more spacious in the back and has a bigger boot, plus AFAIK its rear seat folds down
Performance: with about 40 extra horses the Subaru is a bit faster than the Lexus, but with the apparently slightly sluggish 5 speed auto box most of its advantage in acceleration seems to be lost
Driving: not having test driven either yet, I am relying on what I've read, which suggests that both of these are quite responsive though less so than a 3 series, and generally pretty smooth and comfortable albeit a bit harsh over uneven roads and potholes, especially with big alloys
Running costs: likely to be a bit lower for the Lexus, partly because of cheaper tax (£290 vs. £490) and lower insurance group
Price: the Subaru is a rare beast and prices seem less fixed than for the Lexus; however, when they do come up for sale Subarus seem to be cheaper, no doubt partly due to that high tax and their less upmarket image
Edited by nimchimpsky82 on Sunday 18th October 14:11
Edited by nimchimpsky82 on Sunday 18th October 14:12
Is AWD important to you? Probably the main reason the Spec B has the disadvantages you mentioned.
A lot of info on the Spec B here:
http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/
Do you like tinkering with your cars? The Legacy may have more things you can do to enhance it.
A lot of info on the Spec B here:
http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/
Do you like tinkering with your cars? The Legacy may have more things you can do to enhance it.
cailean said:
Is AWD important to you? Probably the main reason the Spec B has the disadvantages you mentioned.
A lot of info on the Spec B here:
http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/
Do you like tinkering with your cars? The Legacy may have more things you can do to enhance it.
Thanks Cailean. I drove a mate's A4 quattro recently and was impressed with the extra traction on twisty B-roads; I suppose AWD would be nice to have but not essential.A lot of info on the Spec B here:
http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/
Do you like tinkering with your cars? The Legacy may have more things you can do to enhance it.
I think you're right about the scope for modifications to the Legacy compared to the IS, but from reading discussions on that forum (excellent link btw; been looking at it for days now) I gather that anything substantially over 280 hp is pretty much impossible without major engine work -- which is money I'd rather put into a maintenance/repair fund or keep as savings towards a replacement in future. Of course power isn't everything, but being NA there are nonetheless quite clear limits to what can sort of gains may be achieved (compared to a WRX, Saab turbo, and so on).
I suppose to me the main advantages of the Legacy are that it's slightly roomier without being a substantially bigger car, a little cheaper to buy, and even (a lot) less common than the IS. Just trying to make up my mind as to whether that's enough...
danp said:
330i? Might need to be a bit leggy or older to make budget tho'.
Thanks; am not the biggest fan of the Bimmer image to be honest, due to the way they are often driven. However, I find the E90 a handsome car and it's no doubt more dynamic to drive than my two suggestions. I do worry about reliability, though -- based on what I see on Honestjohn and other websites (injectors etc.), especially since I think you're right in saying that I'd be looking at a higher mileage/older example to stay within budget (even for a slightly more modest 325i). I may have to accept that I simply can't afford to run this car... If you value reliability, buy the Lexus, although that theory falls at the first hurdle when taking into account the diesels. The petrol one is great, we had one for 3 years and liked it enough to follow it up with an IS-F.
The regular 250 is a much better drive than you'd imagine, it was probably the most surprising car I've ever driven in the way it steered and handled. I came to it knowing it would be reliable, but not expecting to be sorry to part with it. Very good car that you can drive hard all the time, because no-one gives it a 2nd glance. Ours was genuinely faultless in our time with it.
The regular 250 is a much better drive than you'd imagine, it was probably the most surprising car I've ever driven in the way it steered and handled. I came to it knowing it would be reliable, but not expecting to be sorry to part with it. Very good car that you can drive hard all the time, because no-one gives it a 2nd glance. Ours was genuinely faultless in our time with it.
A
I'm biased as I'm a BMW fan and have recently bought a 330i (E90 manual, pre facelift so not DFI or electric steering) but having had a quick look the figures for them are in a different league to the others you mention (i.e. combination of performance, economy and co2 emissions) but agree that the Japanese cars have a better reliability reputation, we shall see!
Funnily enough I had been thinking vaguely of a spec B wagon as may want something more practical than my 330i, but there is a black saloon nearish me on Autotrader that would appear to tick your boxes (2009, auto, 66k) - pm me if you'd like me to have a look (and I can try one ;-)
nimchimpsky82 said:
danp said:
330i? Might need to be a bit leggy or older to make budget tho'.
Thanks; am not the biggest fan of the Bimmer image to be honest, due to the way they are often driven. However, I find the E90 a handsome car and it's no doubt more dynamic to drive than my two suggestions. I do worry about reliability, though -- based on what I see on Honestjohn and other websites (injectors etc.), especially since I think you're right in saying that I'd be looking at a higher mileage/older example to stay within budget (even for a slightly more modest 325i). I may have to accept that I simply can't afford to run this car... Funnily enough I had been thinking vaguely of a spec B wagon as may want something more practical than my 330i, but there is a black saloon nearish me on Autotrader that would appear to tick your boxes (2009, auto, 66k) - pm me if you'd like me to have a look (and I can try one ;-)
I looked at getting an IS200 a few years ago, but ended up with a Liberty 2.5. Main reasons...
Performance - the 2.0 six in the IS was a peach to rev but had nothing in the low rev range and not a lot more once up and running. The 2.5 in the Lib was torquier and easily offset the additional weight. The 2.5 flat four isn't the quietest around and the 3.0 flat six is much smoother. I've seen plenty H6 engines with turbos...
Handling was similar, though the Lib was much more surefooted on damp/wet roads. Both could be fun, though neither had the grunt to overcome grip in the dry. Steering in the IS was more direct.
Space - Liberty was bigger in the back and had split/fold rear seats - made it easy to carry mtbs inside.
Reliability - IS reputation is excellent, Liberty also. I've now had three, and would happily buy another. In fact caught myself looking at STi versions the other day.
Interior - the IS might be better to look at but both will be hard to break - Subaru very functional and long-lasting. Stereo in the Lib is an excellent McKintosh branded item. Watch for the integrated 6-CD auto changer in the dash - make sure it works as it's integrated with the AC controls and if you replace with an aftermarket system, it needs a little extra work. Plenty have done it though. TBH the IS felt like a big Corolla inside - yes it was well put together and a little more stylish than the Lib but it still had a bit of a mundane feel. Newer models might be different.
Of course, you could always look for an imported Liberty/Legacy GT with either the 2.0 or 2.5 turbo - fun!
Anyway, hope that lot helps.
Performance - the 2.0 six in the IS was a peach to rev but had nothing in the low rev range and not a lot more once up and running. The 2.5 in the Lib was torquier and easily offset the additional weight. The 2.5 flat four isn't the quietest around and the 3.0 flat six is much smoother. I've seen plenty H6 engines with turbos...
Handling was similar, though the Lib was much more surefooted on damp/wet roads. Both could be fun, though neither had the grunt to overcome grip in the dry. Steering in the IS was more direct.
Space - Liberty was bigger in the back and had split/fold rear seats - made it easy to carry mtbs inside.
Reliability - IS reputation is excellent, Liberty also. I've now had three, and would happily buy another. In fact caught myself looking at STi versions the other day.
Interior - the IS might be better to look at but both will be hard to break - Subaru very functional and long-lasting. Stereo in the Lib is an excellent McKintosh branded item. Watch for the integrated 6-CD auto changer in the dash - make sure it works as it's integrated with the AC controls and if you replace with an aftermarket system, it needs a little extra work. Plenty have done it though. TBH the IS felt like a big Corolla inside - yes it was well put together and a little more stylish than the Lib but it still had a bit of a mundane feel. Newer models might be different.
Of course, you could always look for an imported Liberty/Legacy GT with either the 2.0 or 2.5 turbo - fun!
Anyway, hope that lot helps.
Thanks Heaveho and danp. I think the obvious thing for me to do will be to test drive a few cars; not so easy as although these cars are quite rare to begin with (particularly the Legacy) they somehow seem *especially* uncommon in the North West. I'll keep an eye on E90s for sale as well, as there's always at least a slight chance of getting lucky. A final car I may throw into the mix is the turbo charged JDM Legacy 2.0 GT -- extremely rare, obviously, but with the old Toyota soldiering on and on I'm in no real rush.
danp said:
Funnily enough I had been thinking vaguely of a spec B wagon as may want something more practical than my 330i, but there is a black saloon nearish me on Autotrader that would appear to tick your boxes (2009, auto, 66k) - pm me if you'd like me to have a look (and I can try one ;-)
That 2009 black one is not the face lift version so is probably an import and not a UK spec 2009 car.nimchimpsky82 said:
I would like something a bit more exciting and involving -- the easy bit ha --, but without sacrificing too much in terms of reliability or family practicality
The car has to be automatic and full leather, which rules out the entry level IS250. I don't like estate cars so the Legacy would have to be a saloon. Finally, I'd be looking to keep the car for a good few years, so residuals and ease of reselling matter very little.
Curious to hear whether others think my list of pros and cons (ordered purely randomly; for example, I don't necessarily value interior over performance) of each is accurate, and whether perhaps there's another car I should be looking at. One disadvantage of both cars is that they seem to be very limited in terms of modifying them to increase power/torque. This isn't something I've ever dabbled in before but I might be tempted.
I only have half the information you require.The car has to be automatic and full leather, which rules out the entry level IS250. I don't like estate cars so the Legacy would have to be a saloon. Finally, I'd be looking to keep the car for a good few years, so residuals and ease of reselling matter very little.
Curious to hear whether others think my list of pros and cons (ordered purely randomly; for example, I don't necessarily value interior over performance) of each is accurate, and whether perhaps there's another car I should be looking at. One disadvantage of both cars is that they seem to be very limited in terms of modifying them to increase power/torque. This isn't something I've ever dabbled in before but I might be tempted.
I have a Spec.B, and it delivers an involving drive (mine is a manual) with the handling of a much smaller AND well-sorted car. Maybe even too understated, it is a car that is significantly greater than the sum of it's parts - it's also a nice place to be on a long journey, the sat-nav is very good, and reliability is excellent. We took ours to the Alps a year or so back, and it was perfect.
Ours is eleven years old, and in the three years I've owned it, the only things I've replaced other than service/consumables are rear wheel bearings (you buy the complete hub, OE for circa 140 GBP and it's an easy swop)
You can fit 17" alloys over the standard brakes, and I did with winter tyres for the Alps trip.
The AWD is very very good, as you would expect with their rally heritage - it is a proper permanent system designed as AWD and therefore has distinct advantages. DYOR. You actually look forward to driving in snow.
You only problem is finding one for sale, but at least if you want an auto and a saloon, they do seem to come up more often (they did when I was looking).
Why don't you like estates BTW?
Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 19th October 23:08
Thanks PomBstard and Orangecurry; very useful to read endorsements from people who actually own these rare beasts.
My dislike of estates is primarily aesthetic: saloons just almost always look more elegant and 'balanced' to me. I also think they isolate the cabin better from noise of and at the rear wheels.
My dislike of estates is primarily aesthetic: saloons just almost always look more elegant and 'balanced' to me. I also think they isolate the cabin better from noise of and at the rear wheels.
cailean said:
That 2009 black one is not the face lift version so is probably an import and not a UK spec 2009 car.
Wow, thanks for your eagle eye cailean. I've only just started looking at these cars so am not that good yet at identifying pre vs. post-facelift models, but the rear lights indeed look pre-facelift to me. Also, there appears to be no SI-Drive dial. This does raise the interesting question: if not a UK car, then what is it? JDM cars got the facelift earlier so assuming the year is correct, it can't be Japanese. Either way, I don't think I'll be driving down to view this car!Edited by nimchimpsky82 on Wednesday 21st October 16:29
Edited by nimchimpsky82 on Wednesday 21st October 17:07
It all comes down to your priorities. We've had a Legacy and Impreza STI and my mum had a couple of IS250s. For me, they were polar opposites within the class. The Legacy feels like a bigger Impreza and the engine is magnificent, but it's a more sporting drive with less ride comfort than the Lexus, and is a thirsty, thirsty beast. The Lexus is much more a motorway mile eater than the Legacy, which tends to tramline and fidget more, and I always found the rear suspension on the Legacy under-damped, though ours was a Tourer. The Lexus is much more about comfort and is one of the best built cars I've driven. However, the engine is very muted and really isn't very powerful. For me, the Subaru felt significantly faster. The IS250 is a heavy beast and feels it. Really comes down to your priority. If you want involvement, go Legacy, if you want comfort, go Lexus. Both are great cars. Though, if you go for the Legacy, have you considered finding a proper imported STI?
Edited by Ali_T on Wednesday 21st October 14:43
Just a point on that - we averaged 27mpg going to the Alps and back, and that's properly measured, not relying on the computer.
That includes mostly very brisk driving, though I did use the cruise-control across the swathes of France.
It was torrential rain on the way, and snow and packed-ice on the mountain/village roads. Yes I had winter tyres, but there was no question of loss of grip at any point - except when I dropped the family and luggage off, and went for a hoon outside the village ('.....just going to park the car somewhere safe Darling') just to see how the rear LSD coped. Sublime.
Aesthetics on an estate come down to the ratio between window-glass, metal (rear wing) and wheel.
Glass needs to be small, metal smaller and wheel bigger. The Legacy looks good.
That includes mostly very brisk driving, though I did use the cruise-control across the swathes of France.
It was torrential rain on the way, and snow and packed-ice on the mountain/village roads. Yes I had winter tyres, but there was no question of loss of grip at any point - except when I dropped the family and luggage off, and went for a hoon outside the village ('.....just going to park the car somewhere safe Darling') just to see how the rear LSD coped. Sublime.
Aesthetics on an estate come down to the ratio between window-glass, metal (rear wing) and wheel.
Glass needs to be small, metal smaller and wheel bigger. The Legacy looks good.
Thanks both for the input. I think I'll really need to drive both these cars and perhaps a 325i/330i as well, and see how much space they offer, bearing in mind that two child seats will need to be installed.
Ali_T said:
Really comes down to your priority. If you want involvement, go Legacy, if you want comfort, go Lexus. Both are great cars. Though, if you go for the Legacy, have you considered finding a proper imported STI?
I've looked in a few places, including Car and Classic and Torque GT. I don't think these are in budget, really, unless I go for an older car. It also seems that in the case of at least some of the JDM turbo versions auto versions didn't have the same amount of power as manuals, which kind of negates the point of getting one of them over an EU 3.0 R Spec B.
ericmcn said:
Has the OP made his mind up on this ?
I have just seen this post, driven both cars and own a Spec.B now in manual. The legacy is much faster and more sure footed than the Lexus but it depends what you want, to waft around in comfort or to be in a more involving drive.
I'm guessing the OP made his mind up over a year ago.I have just seen this post, driven both cars and own a Spec.B now in manual. The legacy is much faster and more sure footed than the Lexus but it depends what you want, to waft around in comfort or to be in a more involving drive.
Thanks all. Wouldn't have bumped this myself but I guess ericmcn just wanted to share his enthusiasm and experience, which I appreciate. Anyway, as the thread has been resurrected from the dead, I may as well admit that I have taken the horribly boring dad decision of saving the Avensis from the scrapyard for a bit longer. It has been due a new cambelt in the mean time, but other than that has provided another year of unexciting yet free motoring.
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