Car makers buying competitors Super Cars?
Discussion
Just read in EVO the article on Lamborghini Miura,there's a reference to Ford buying one of the earliest examples.
Do manufacturers do this a lot?,im not talking about ,say, Peugeot buying a few of the latest Fiat Puntos or Ford buying new Vectra's to test/pull apart.
Does Porsche,Lamboghini(VAG),Aston Martin(Ford) etc have orderes placed for Ferrari Enzos ?
Does BMW and Jaguar have orders in for
Maybachs ?
What about Mclarens , how many of them will be in the collections of the worlds big makers ? and how many were left for private sale ?
Any PHers in the know care to enlighten us ?
Ta
Darren
.
Do manufacturers do this a lot?,im not talking about ,say, Peugeot buying a few of the latest Fiat Puntos or Ford buying new Vectra's to test/pull apart.
Does Porsche,Lamboghini(VAG),Aston Martin(Ford) etc have orderes placed for Ferrari Enzos ?
Does BMW and Jaguar have orders in for
Maybachs ?
What about Mclarens , how many of them will be in the collections of the worlds big makers ? and how many were left for private sale ?
Any PHers in the know care to enlighten us ?
Ta
Darren
.When I worked in the Motor Trade it was common place to barter your demonstration fleet. You would have the fleet of vehicles at your disposal for shows or ride/drives or whatever and if one wasnt being utilised it was touted round the other manufacturers until someone fancied a go and could give you something you wanted in return.
Inevitably arriving in a flash motor from another manufacturer got attention and everyone would paw over it for a while gaining ideas to send back to the factory.
Useful exercise and an excuse for a damned good laugh!
Matt.
Inevitably arriving in a flash motor from another manufacturer got attention and everyone would paw over it for a while gaining ideas to send back to the factory.
Useful exercise and an excuse for a damned good laugh!
Matt.
It is quite common for manufacturers to borrow each other's vehicles... whether this involves an agreement, a trip to the local dealership, hiring one or even buying one.
I've worked on projects in the past where a group of people are assembled to compare a number of given vehicles and highlight the good and bad points... this data is then used to make a better vehicle. (In theory).
The other thing I've seen is one manufacturer buying in a load of vehicles and stripping them to the components, where they analyse the whole thing and learn how to improve theirs. Needless to say this is usually done with the class leading car.
It happens at boggo saloon / rep mobile / eurobox level, so I would be surprised if it didn't happen at supercar level too.
I've worked on projects in the past where a group of people are assembled to compare a number of given vehicles and highlight the good and bad points... this data is then used to make a better vehicle. (In theory).
The other thing I've seen is one manufacturer buying in a load of vehicles and stripping them to the components, where they analyse the whole thing and learn how to improve theirs. Needless to say this is usually done with the class leading car.
It happens at boggo saloon / rep mobile / eurobox level, so I would be surprised if it didn't happen at supercar level too.
When Jaguar first started campaigning the E-type (around 1962 I guess) they decided to evaluate the opposition (before going on to build the special run of 12 'Lightweight E-Types').
So the story goes, they 'borrowed' a Ferrari 250 GTO and pulled it apart in their workshops. Unfortunately one evening the cleaner came around and emptied the can of nuts and bolts into the bin.
Jaguar were then left in the rather tricky position of having to get the thing back to Ferrari (without anyone sussing them) - don't know how they did it but they had to source the right bits from somewhere.
So the story goes, they 'borrowed' a Ferrari 250 GTO and pulled it apart in their workshops. Unfortunately one evening the cleaner came around and emptied the can of nuts and bolts into the bin.
Jaguar were then left in the rather tricky position of having to get the thing back to Ferrari (without anyone sussing them) - don't know how they did it but they had to source the right bits from somewhere.
In my experience (eleven years in the car engineering business), everyone drives, and often strips down, each others cars all the time. The buzzword is "benchmarking".
It works all ways around:
I remember Lotus buying a Caterham in between the M100 and Elise projects to remind themselves how to do roller skate type cars.
We have just sold a car to a very major sports car manufacturer who were so impresed when they drove a prototype that they bought a production car for detailed evaluation.
It works all ways around:
I remember Lotus buying a Caterham in between the M100 and Elise projects to remind themselves how to do roller skate type cars.
We have just sold a car to a very major sports car manufacturer who were so impresed when they drove a prototype that they bought a production car for detailed evaluation.
From personal experience I can tell you that this goes on. When I used to work with Bentley, I drove their 'test comparison' BMW 750iL, Audi A8, new Merc S500, Lexus etc. They spent a fortune on these cars, just to see what they were like down to the last nut and bolt.
Interestingly, when they took apart a Lexus years ago, they found a fix to a problem that had been bugging them for years - the squeak of leather against leather in between the seat cushion and the seat back. For years the boys at Crewe had tried different creams to make the leather soft and un-squeaky. Then they found that the crafty japs had put a sliver of cloth in between the leather facings. Job done. Needless to say, I'm pretty sure Bentleys and Rollers may have this feature now, and a certain amount of 'borrowing' goes on just outside the bounds of patent infringement.
Interestingly, when they took apart a Lexus years ago, they found a fix to a problem that had been bugging them for years - the squeak of leather against leather in between the seat cushion and the seat back. For years the boys at Crewe had tried different creams to make the leather soft and un-squeaky. Then they found that the crafty japs had put a sliver of cloth in between the leather facings. Job done. Needless to say, I'm pretty sure Bentleys and Rollers may have this feature now, and a certain amount of 'borrowing' goes on just outside the bounds of patent infringement.
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I remember hearing a story that ford bought one of the first minis in 1959 and took it apart, they said they couldn’t make the all parts for the total price of the car. They must have moved up in the world now.
I've heard this, but I do wonder if it's an urban legend...
It was certainly true for Aston Martins I think. Apparently a friend of DB himself asked for a car to be sold to him at 'cost'. 'My pleasure', said DB, and quoted his mate a price higher than list!
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Interestingly, when they took apart a Lexus years ago, they found a fix to a problem that had been bugging them for years - the squeak of leather against leather in between the seat cushion and the seat back. For years the boys at Crewe had tried different creams to make the leather soft and un-squeaky. Then they found that the crafty japs had put a sliver of cloth in between the leather facings. Job done. Needless to say, I'm pretty sure Bentleys and Rollers may have this feature now, and a certain amount of 'borrowing' goes on just outside the bounds of patent infringement.
Tell you what Dom, don't know what you thought but getting out of a Lexus and into a Crewe special highlighted to me just how non-sensical the so-called bespoke thing really is: the lexus felt miles better built although ironically, the old shape Benters felt more crafted than the BMW parts bin special known as the Arnage. And curing leather creaks? That consisted of shoving fabric strips 'twixt leather cushions and...hoping! It didn't work! No car I've ever driven creaks like one of these things and quite honestly, that's both a shame and, IMHO, a damn disgrace when you look at the price.
I suspect the Maybach will kick Crewe's ass in international sales and the whole business of platform sharing may/will yield better build quality but that defeats the whole essence of Bentley ownership. They should be totally original with minimal parts sharing (certainly not obvious, anyway), retaining the handcrafted aspect but achieving 7 series/S-class/Lexus overall assembly quality. This is probably some kind of contradiction in terms but there you go!
I reckon we'll all end up victims of the insatiable, cynical, VAG marketing department.
What about a TVR luxury saloon? Ha!
Derestrictor,
You are completely right to criticise yourself for expecting mass production cosmetic quality at specialist volumes as it is near impossible to achieve. The reason that quality goes up with volume (if one does it properly, as Toyota does, the cosmetic quality of the Yaris is mind blowing especially given how cheap it is) is that it becomes affordable to make very expensive tooling and then use techniques like statistical process control to near guarantee near perfect repeatability in every part.
Try and get hold of a book called "The Machine That Changed the World". It is ten years old now and some of its predictions bring a smile but most of it is still spot on as well as being fascinating and informative.
The other possible way to try and achieve impeccable cosmetic quality is to charge very high prices and throw very large numbers of hours into the build process. However, earlier postings and The Book (TMTCTW) both suggest that does not achieve such a good result. I don't believe that anyone working at low volume and mid or low range pricing could ever approach mass production cosmetic quality.
The other thing it is difficult to get most peole to realise is that quality is far more than skin deep. There are a lot of beautifully finished cars out there that underneath have poor chassis, unreliable electrics, and appalling ergonomics. Quality starts with good engineering.
You are completely right to criticise yourself for expecting mass production cosmetic quality at specialist volumes as it is near impossible to achieve. The reason that quality goes up with volume (if one does it properly, as Toyota does, the cosmetic quality of the Yaris is mind blowing especially given how cheap it is) is that it becomes affordable to make very expensive tooling and then use techniques like statistical process control to near guarantee near perfect repeatability in every part.
Try and get hold of a book called "The Machine That Changed the World". It is ten years old now and some of its predictions bring a smile but most of it is still spot on as well as being fascinating and informative.
The other possible way to try and achieve impeccable cosmetic quality is to charge very high prices and throw very large numbers of hours into the build process. However, earlier postings and The Book (TMTCTW) both suggest that does not achieve such a good result. I don't believe that anyone working at low volume and mid or low range pricing could ever approach mass production cosmetic quality.
The other thing it is difficult to get most peole to realise is that quality is far more than skin deep. There are a lot of beautifully finished cars out there that underneath have poor chassis, unreliable electrics, and appalling ergonomics. Quality starts with good engineering.
Phew! Cheers for that Joe - you make complete sense.
But what you said about basic engineering integrity: are we expected to believe that in terms of sheer technical quality (forgetting the qualitative stuff like assessing the relative merits of an up-ended church pew in an Aston/Bentley v. the chip board special in an S-class), by which I mean ALL aspects of solidity, noiseless interiors, stable idle rates etc, there is therefore ever a logical argument for the bespoke crew?
I guess it's the old Ferrari (passionate but tempremental) v. Porsche (ruthless efficiency but 'dull') rationale...
Aren't we just ultimately going to be buying a badge if the idiosynchronies of less than perfect but 'characterful' and still potent torquemeistery (e.g. Bentley) become little more than an ornament on the mantle of VAG's boardroom fireplace?
For me, part of the mystique (which is bulls**t, I know) has to be the independence of these unique brands and anything that removes that would sully the ownership concept - for me.
And that's the dilema - I kind of lust after the unachievable - so what're you to do? Buy a sodding Phaeton? I guess it's the frustrating clash of reality quashing dreams. Bugger!
But what you said about basic engineering integrity: are we expected to believe that in terms of sheer technical quality (forgetting the qualitative stuff like assessing the relative merits of an up-ended church pew in an Aston/Bentley v. the chip board special in an S-class), by which I mean ALL aspects of solidity, noiseless interiors, stable idle rates etc, there is therefore ever a logical argument for the bespoke crew?
I guess it's the old Ferrari (passionate but tempremental) v. Porsche (ruthless efficiency but 'dull') rationale...
Aren't we just ultimately going to be buying a badge if the idiosynchronies of less than perfect but 'characterful' and still potent torquemeistery (e.g. Bentley) become little more than an ornament on the mantle of VAG's boardroom fireplace?
For me, part of the mystique (which is bulls**t, I know) has to be the independence of these unique brands and anything that removes that would sully the ownership concept - for me.
And that's the dilema - I kind of lust after the unachievable - so what're you to do? Buy a sodding Phaeton? I guess it's the frustrating clash of reality quashing dreams. Bugger!
Don't get me wrong, the last thing I would advocate is that people only buy mass market products or fake niche products on mass market platforms. Like you, I think that would make the world insufferably dull. My point is that if one wants to buy something specialist, one has to accept that as well as some things being better than the mass produced vehicles (whether those things are as insubstantial as "character" or exclusivity or as easily perceptible [to those that care] as handling or performance) some will be worse. There is however no excuse for specialists to produce cars which feature bad engineering design leading to unreliability, discomfort or danger (which some of them still do).
DR, you are right about the Lexus vs Bentley thing, and about the old Bentley vs Arnage thing.
If you were to blindfold a passenger and take them in a Lexus for five miles, then do the same with a Silver Seraph or Arnage, I bet the passenger would guess the wrong car. The Lexus is quieter, more refined and rides better.
Open your eyes and the misery of japanese woodwork and leather assaults your eyes. This is basically what you pay for with something from Crewe. As for creaking leather, yes, they always have problems here. For ultimate quietness in an interior you need cloth - leather reflects sound as well as creaking. Who wants a Rolls with cloth, though
The Arnage is a good car (red label, not green - I drove both back to back), but the older ones have the leather and wood, and this is what counts. As you say, the BMW switchgear was a shame. I reckon they could have made some nice ali buttons for the climate control system, but budgets is budgets, even on a 140k car.
Cheers
Domster
If you were to blindfold a passenger and take them in a Lexus for five miles, then do the same with a Silver Seraph or Arnage, I bet the passenger would guess the wrong car. The Lexus is quieter, more refined and rides better.
Open your eyes and the misery of japanese woodwork and leather assaults your eyes. This is basically what you pay for with something from Crewe. As for creaking leather, yes, they always have problems here. For ultimate quietness in an interior you need cloth - leather reflects sound as well as creaking. Who wants a Rolls with cloth, though
The Arnage is a good car (red label, not green - I drove both back to back), but the older ones have the leather and wood, and this is what counts. As you say, the BMW switchgear was a shame. I reckon they could have made some nice ali buttons for the climate control system, but budgets is budgets, even on a 140k car.
Cheers
Domster
Tell you what though, Dom, I remember piloting a mid-90s 'Brooklands' model; softer suspension set up than the R/RL/RT models but still with a light pressure turbo itself. This may be rose tinted specs kicking in but I seem to remember experiencing, as somebody on PH once described, 'Lexian waft' of the first degree - all with that fantastic Merlin Spitfire beast throbbing in the engine room! And bugger all leather creak!
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